Call for circumcision safeguards after baby death

[SerendipityJane]

No excuse in the UK. Ever.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqj2r8x2k4yo

How utterly tragic, and barbaric. There's no excuse for cutting off or puncturing healthy parts of a child's body. I think any kind of non-medical surgical body modification of a child should be illegal, including piercings for children. There's just no need for it.

If someone decided to trim their baby's earlobes because they thought it looked better, it wouldn't be allowed despite being less dangerous and less functionally damaging, and yet they're allowed to lop off a sizeable part of that same baby's penis? Make it make sense.

The risk aside, it should not be legal to alter a baby’s body for anything other than health reasons. Even if there was zero risk with circumcision to the baby I still don’t believe it should be done, because why should any parent have the right to do body modification on a baby or small child. And that goes for ear piercing for babies as well. It’s all blood awful.

@OverlyFragrant I remember a discussion on Huffington Post about this . An American woman was arguing that uncircumcised boys would be at risk of penile cancer and STDs - I can't remember why tbh. She was forced to concede at length that there was no evidence of this happening in Europe where most babies are not circumcised. Yet her closing remarks were ' I don't care , it looks gross before it's cut and he'd never get a girlfriend '.

I think in the US it's more about the hospital adding another item to your bill ?

I read the article, I wasn’t really sure if there was some sort of negligence by the person who performed the circumcision which led to the infection or if it was just an unlucky consequence of creating a wound on his genitalia.

Neither of my DS’s are circumcised so I’ve never really looked at it but does anyone know the statistics of how many are performed versus how many end in complications?

I know other pps have mentioned the gap between becoming symptomatic and treatment but it is worth remembering how quickly babies go downhill. I’m sure I’m not the only parent who has ended up in an ambulance taking their dc to hospital after them taking a sudden turn for the worse.

The coroner said there are no national safeguards governing non-therapeutic male circumcision, with no requirements for training, accreditation or registration of those carrying out the procedure, and no rules on record keeping, infection control or aftercare.

This is an absolute scandal.

And also a scandal that this happened 3 years ago and it could be another 2 months before the Coroner's report is responded to and how-long-is-a-piece-of-string before any actual laws are passed.

Of course it should be banned, it's horrific that we allow this in this day and age, in a so-called civilised society. But I fear we're moving in the other direction. There seems to be more pressure to allow FGM than to ban MGM:

Laws banning FGM are harmful and ‘stigmatising’, say academics

It's difficult for me to understand how anybody who carves up their children can be considered an adequate parent. I'm pretty sure if I started slicing off random pieces of my children, they would be removed from me sharpish and I would find myself in a prison cell. I can't fathom how just because someone claims they did it cause god told them to, it's considered entirely acceptable and they're fully entitled to not only continue parenting the child they attacked, but also chop up any others that cross their path. It's fucking demented.

More likely to be an old (or middle aged) man in your front room if it is a Jewish circumcision. That's how its done.

Religious reasons are never "truly necessary".

One of the nurses actually asked me if we were going to get DS circumcised. This was in an English, NHS hospital in 2024. I was honestly shocked and told her absolutely not. She was pro-circumcision as it was part of her religion (Christianity) and she did try to encourage us. Luckily, both DH and I think it’s barbaric and are not easily swayed to maim our children.

I honestly don't understand how our laws are modified or compromised for religion.

We have banned fox-hunting, as culturally deep as religion in some rural communities, but allow bits to be sliced of a baby in a front room by a non-medical person.

We have outlawed docking dogs ears but allow foreskins of humans to be cut off.

And I don't agree that doctors should be allowed to perform unnecessary surgery on babies either. Why are my taxes paying for hospital circumcision on the NHS? (if that does happen?)

Choosing to practise any religion as an adult, does not give parents the right to request bits of their baby are cut off.

How did it come to be that cutting the skin off your child’s penis became a common religious practice?

And - that it is so defended as a critical part of that religion today?

Front room, yes, they are usually done at home. For a large proportion, probably most, Jewish circumcisions (at least outside of the ultra-orthodox community which I suspect operates differently) they are done by qualified doctors not just random “old (or middle aged) men” who visit before and after by way of follow up care. That’s not to say there isn’t a fair debate that can be had about circumcision for religious reasons but it should be based on what happens in practice.

We have banned fox-hunting, as culturally deep as religion in some rural communities, but allow bits to be sliced of a baby in a front room by a non-medical person.

No we haven't banned fox hunting. 'Trail hunting' still occurs and is a blatant cover-up, the perpetrators don't care that it is blatant, because they still fox hunt but call it something else which means it is not illegal.

We have outlawed docking dogs ears but allow foreskins of humans to be cut off.

This still occurs too-despite being illegal. I see tonnes of dogs with docked ears in my small village in the North.

I do not think these things are necessarily related at all, but let's not spread information with omitted crucial elements,

This post is useful however-it is also worth pointing out that illegalising circumcision could have the opposite of the desired effect. People will still do it, just illegally, same as everything we make illegal. Burglary is illegal too.

Of course the difference is, some people might be prosecuted for performing an illegal circumcision. Might. How many? I would say a very minimal number. I hope I'm wrong.

It isn't done on the NHS unless for medical reasons.

The poor little baby. I am completely against non medically necessary circumcision. I hadn't thought about it a lot but I naïvely thought they were at least being done in a clinic under strictly controlled conditions.

I very much hope you reported her.

You could also have shown her a bible as it explicitly states that circumcision is not required by Christianity: "Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you." Just one of very many examples. Christians can lop bits off their penises if they so wish, but it's not going to impress Jesus.

This is not one of those 'well, Christianity's just as bad' situations.

It does need consigning to the history books - circumcision - unless the male/man in question chooses it - and is over 18. But for the love of goodness, can people NOT compare it to female genital mutilation! The two things are NOT the same.

The male equilvalent would be chopping off the end of the penis, like a whole inch. The glans and all....

NO cutting into any genitals is acceptable on a CHILD, or anyone really.

I agree ear piercing on any child under 10 needs banning too.

I should have done but no I didn’t. I wouldn’t know what her name is to even do this now. I had not long come round from a traumatic emergency C-section so I wasn’t fully functioning.

I agree it should be banned. I don’t understand why it’s illegal for girls (thankfully) but not illegal for boys.

Sadly, you are right. A retired midwife friend of mine told me about a Jehovah's Witness baby that had to be made ward of court several years ago because the parents refused to allow the baby to have a very necessary blood transfusion.

The baby was very ill for a while and had to be fostered then adopted because the parents refused to have anything to do with it. The sad thing is that the mother would probably continue to have unhealthy babies as she refused an anti D jab as she was rhesus negative.

I used to be really against this and not understand what the point of it was. Ie. Just some strange cultural, religious archaic practice.

However I now have a son of Jewish ethnicity and he is having numerous foreskin issues. I am now wondering whether those of Jewish descent are just predisposed to this because talking to all my other white British relatives no one has ever heard of these problems.

We are obviously discussing with doctors regularly but they don’t see it as meeting the bar for nhs circumcision yet. However if we get to that point and the waiting list is long then we were going to go private. So no I don’t think it should be banned but I do think it should be regulated properly. Obviously we would find a nhs doctor who practices privately in a legitimate practice.

Very sad this has happened to this boy 😢

How can anyone do this to their little boy? Horrendous.

Circumcision is not part of the Christian Church

As a mother, I will never understand what possesses a mother to hand her perfect new baby over to be sliced into with no medical requirement. I'd have went to jail for murder if anyone tried to cause my child pain, the heel prick testing is horrendous enough never mind strapping down a newborn with zero anaesthetic to perform this. Barbaric and your aptitude for parenting should 100% be brought into question if you choose to do this. Shame on those parents for allowing this then not seeking adequate medical attention for their child, and shame on this country's laws for allowing religious brainwashing to continue to harm children.