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Thread 39 Starmer: chwech/saith - dechreuodd y plant ei

1000 replies

DuncinToffee · 28/11/2025 21:55

Previous thread
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5446809-thread-38-starmer-tax-your-hamster?page=40

Political and general chat

Taxes optional but greatly appreciated

OP posts:
Thread gallery
129
BIossomtoes · 02/12/2025 10:20

DuncinToffee · 02/12/2025 10:17

Thanks, I saw people posting screenshots of it and using it it without questioning.

I think IDS is connected to that think tank.

He is. The introduction to the document is by him - or at least signed off by him. Thing is that it doesn’t say anything about the fictitious £71k in the first place.

placemats · 02/12/2025 10:21

SerendipityJane · 02/12/2025 10:17

Seems the Express are on a mission to make Keir much more popular.

Why indeed would anyone be furious about closer links post Brexit disaster.

SerendipityJane · 02/12/2025 10:25

I was reminiscing with a friend last week over all the things that you can't get anymore. (At any price). Even they commented that surely it can't still be the pandemic to blame.

But what else happened in 2020 ?

Efacsen · 02/12/2025 10:25

BIossomtoes · 02/12/2025 10:10

Yes. I found the document it was based on and asked which page the workings were on. Tumbleweed. It was another Telegraph work of fiction.

I saw that [well referenced] post of yours and checked back a couple of times to see if you had had a reply - but as you say nada

Personally I don't think MNHQ has any real interest in correcting mis/dis-information even when given actual well researched factual information on a plate - too messy too complicated and would require more moderators than they want to employ

SerendipityJane · 02/12/2025 10:38

Personally I don't think MNHQ has any real interest in correcting mis/dis-information even when given actual well researched factual information on a plate - too messy too complicated and would require more moderators than they want to employ

In a recent dialogue with them, it seems incumbent on the more informed and educated posters to consider the dim and thick when posting.

(For posters wishing to report, this posts sarcasm level has been rated: mild)

BIossomtoes · 02/12/2025 10:39

It’s par for the course, isn’t it? Spray threads with some made up bollocks, claim it’s based on research from what looks like a credible source without checking, then completely ignore any challenge. I’d like to see MN pin researched correction of misinformation at the top of the threads concerned but I guess that’s unrealistic in terms of what it would cost.

DuncinToffee · 02/12/2025 10:52

"I don't think it was misleading for the Chancellor to say that the fiscal position was very challenging at the beginning of that week," the OBR's David Miles tells Treasury Committee.

OP posts:
SerendipityJane · 02/12/2025 10:53

(text reads)

NewsThump There aren't any children really in poverty in the UK, look up how they measure "poverty" it's a section on income that's below the median household income. Unless you make everyone earn the same there is always going to be "poverty". But it doesn't mean kids aren't being fed and clothed, having a roof over their head, having access to schooling and education or going on holidays. It's just redistribution of income with no measurement of real outcomes. It's BS.

Comments like this are always amusing, because they highlight a level of mathematical and economic ignorance that otherwise gets missed. So we appreciate you being so willing to publicly display your own ignorance for the rest of the group.

Firstly, no, it's not anyone earning less than the median income. It's anyone earning less than 60% (sixty per cent) of the median income. And so because it's a percentage of the MEDIAN income, it's actually possible for NO ONE to be below that 60% line. It's not a mathematical certainty that anyone will be below that line. To make it even more obvious, if people across the country had a median income of £100 a week, then anyone earning less than £60 is in poverty.

Now, because this is a median average, NOT a MEAN average, it is entirely possible for everyone to be above that 60% line. If it were a mean average, then the bottom X% of earners would always be "in poverty", regardless of what they earned, but using median average puts a "line in the sand" beyond which every earner can move to take themselves out of poverty without affecting the median income. If you don't know how median averages work, imagine if you were to line up every worker in the UK, from highest weekly wage to the lowest. At the top end you have footballers, with f1m+ a week, at the very bottom you have the lowest paid jobs in the country on, say, £50 a week. When you line everyone up in wage order, you find the person in the middle, exactly halfway between the top and the bottom, earns £100 a week. Let's call this person "Anthony" in our example.

Now, to the left of Anthony are all the people earning more than him, and to the right are all the people earning less than him. The number of people on the left and right is the same, because he is the "median." Now, let's put the poverty line at 60% of the median (Anthony's wage), so it becomes £60 a week. Everyone to Anthony's right with less than £60 a week is "below the poverty line". Now, let's find a way to give everyone with kids who earns below £60 a week, some form of benefits that tops their wages up to, say, £61 a week, What happens then is that all of those people who were under £60 a week, are now at at LEAST £61 a week, and technically no longer "below the poverty line*. Now the exciting bit!

The interesting thing about median averages, is that the median income (Anthony) is STILL the median income. The median average hasn't changed AT ALL, because Anthony is STILL the middle carner when everyone is lined up from highest carner to lowest earner - all that has happened is that the very lowest earners have got a tiny little bit closer to his earnings to lift them out of poverty. They sill earn a lot less than him, they're still have below median average wages, they just aren't below the 60% poverty line.

This is why - theoretically - EVERYONE can be above the poverty line. There is no mathematical or economic certainty that means there will ALWAYS be some people living below the poverty line. Now, whether you want to help those people in poverty, or not, is obviously a political question, not a mathematical one. You can of course argue that you don't want to help these people, that is your right, but hopefully you've learned enough to realise you were completely wrong about the fact that there is "always going to be poverty". Thank you for coming to our TED Talk.

Thread 39 Starmer: chwech/saith - dechreuodd y plant ei
SerendipityJane · 02/12/2025 10:54

BIossomtoes · 02/12/2025 10:39

It’s par for the course, isn’t it? Spray threads with some made up bollocks, claim it’s based on research from what looks like a credible source without checking, then completely ignore any challenge. I’d like to see MN pin researched correction of misinformation at the top of the threads concerned but I guess that’s unrealistic in terms of what it would cost.

Signal to noise ratio.

DuncinToffee · 02/12/2025 11:00

You can of course argue that you don't want to help these people

No one really wants to say that bit out loud so they fudge about as you have demonstrated.

OP posts:
RafaistheKingofClay · 02/12/2025 11:05

Also the middle are really really stretched apparently so it shouldn’t be a huge leap to figure out that people earning much less than that are below the poverty line.

And that’s assuming that people earning way above the median are the squeezed middle.

BIossomtoes · 02/12/2025 11:17

RafaistheKingofClay · 02/12/2025 11:05

Also the middle are really really stretched apparently so it shouldn’t be a huge leap to figure out that people earning much less than that are below the poverty line.

And that’s assuming that people earning way above the median are the squeezed middle.

Exactly that. “Squeezed middle” with a household income of £140k. Make it make sense.

SerendipityJane · 02/12/2025 11:41

RafaistheKingofClay · 02/12/2025 11:05

Also the middle are really really stretched apparently so it shouldn’t be a huge leap to figure out that people earning much less than that are below the poverty line.

And that’s assuming that people earning way above the median are the squeezed middle.

There are always the permadim who never accept the mathematical certainty that 50% of the population are always going to be below the (arithmetic mean) average IQ.

And because they aren't that bright, rather than accept it and proceed to then actually asking what does it mean, they remain at first base shouting at pigeons whilst the rest of us contemplate it in a social and cultural sense on their behalf.

PandoraSocks · 02/12/2025 11:52

The RW press is still trying to oust Reeves. Farage has a piece in the Telegraph and the Mail is spitting tacks. I think she'll stay for now.

placemats · 02/12/2025 11:55

I hope she stays @PandoraSocks. It can't be good for the Furious and their blood pressure.

SerendipityJane · 02/12/2025 11:55

A Christmas Quiz

Thread 39 Starmer: chwech/saith - dechreuodd y plant ei
SerendipityJane · 02/12/2025 12:02

PandoraSocks · 02/12/2025 11:52

The RW press is still trying to oust Reeves. Farage has a piece in the Telegraph and the Mail is spitting tacks. I think she'll stay for now.

Let the RW press froth. It will distract from the below the fold stuff Labour are hopefully advancing under it's cover. Using your opponents strength against them,

PandoraSocks · 02/12/2025 12:16

Interesting. Obviously Labour is still polling badly, but the post-budget collapse predicted by some has not materialised.

Thread 39 Starmer: chwech/saith - dechreuodd y plant ei
SerendipityJane · 02/12/2025 12:24

PandoraSocks · 02/12/2025 12:16

Interesting. Obviously Labour is still polling badly, but the post-budget collapse predicted by some has not materialised.

Anecdotally (from a phone call I just had) no real opinions from (some) under 30s.

DuncinToffee · 02/12/2025 12:59

FT

https://www.ft.com/content/48c29b11-deca-423c-bfbd-06968f43867d

UK Politics: OBR says Reeves did not mislead public over Budget forecasts

Let's see if Mason will backtrack

OP posts:
Karistyleaftea · 02/12/2025 13:23

Mason absolutely should backtrack.
He got this so wrong.
The OBR leak beggars belief and to see journalists crowing about it minutes before Rachel Reeves came in to make the speech was, in my opinion, really poor.

SerendipityJane · 02/12/2025 13:52

DuncinToffee · 02/12/2025 12:59

FT

https://www.ft.com/content/48c29b11-deca-423c-bfbd-06968f43867d

UK Politics: OBR says Reeves did not mislead public over Budget forecasts

Let's see if Mason will backtrack

I repeat: this is the terminally thick (or agendaists) whipping each other into a frenzy over fuck all,

placemats · 02/12/2025 13:56

The official Government opposition are media frenzy headlines led which should be stopped in Parliamentary discussions and debates. Order, order should be brought in.

Makes Badenoch's response to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Rachel Reeves even more disrespectful and disgraceful.

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