Is it possible to have a sensible discussion about disability benefits?

[Pjnow]

According to Google 10% of working age people are in receipt of PIP and 6% of 0-15yos receive DLA.

I'm a proper lefty who believes absolutely in the welfare state, a safety net and that we should care properly for those with disabilities. A society should be judged on how it cares for its most vulnerable.

However 10% in receipt of disability benefits can't be sustainable. I know many people receiving PIP also work, it's not about that.

I'm just wondering what (if anything) can be done to make sure those who need support get it, without paying it to 10% of the population. I know not all disabilities are visble etc, but 10%?!

I read that japanese pensioners are commiting petty crimes so they get sent to prison and get housed and fed

I think that he is spot on, actually.

Well yes, but that’s what criteria and thresholds are for, people do need to be ‘disabled enough’ to require financial support in order to be awarded financial support.

Im diabetic and blind in one eye which means I do meet the criteria to describe myself as disabled. But currently neither prevents me from working or necessitates additional costs so I am pretty sure (haven’t actually checked) I wouldn’t be awarded PIP because I should not be eligible for it. That might change, my condition may deteriorate and I may need to claim PIP because at that point I would be ‘disabled enough’.

It’s not the best to want to shave off from those with the least.
The stories of I know a family who do x to get benefits has almost nothing to do with the overall cost of welfare benefits and therefore is of no substance either overall or at all.
Employers should pay decent, life-sustaining salaries.
Flexible and properly disabled adapted employment should be available.
Children with EHCPs shouldn’t be demonised.
Local authorities shouldn’t have to play stupid games with finding arguably suitable schools for disabled children and then fail and face appeals that cost money.
Privatisation of services to support disabled people should have been curbed.
The NHS should have money targeted at specific areas that cause long term, life-limiting problems (eg but not exclusively maternity, dysphasia, cancer treatment, MND, OT/PT, hydrotherapy)Salaries for top level NHS managers should be levelled down unless their services perform.
Small businesses need encouragement and should be enabled to employ disabled people capable of the role.

To the OP - a descriptor of “disabled “ can mean many things. It doesn’t automatically qualify one for benefits.
Sadly, the general public will think it does mean anyone saying they are disabled automatically qualifies whether they are “as badly affected” as aunty Jane who worked all her life and paid her taxes or aunty Meg who to the casual observer did fuck all… and posts like this, worded as you did, encourages suspicion of the disabled at best and hatred more commonly.

The kids costs are all part of the household expenditure, food, clothing, bills. That maintenance money will be part of the pot, not separate. Child maintenance absolutely should be included in deciding on UC eligibility. There are lots of single parents out there doing very well on UC with the maintenance on top.

Extra costs relating to anxiety/depression.

Therapy because the nhs has no mental health support.
Carer support for those too unwell to attend to personal hygiene.
Taxi costs because public transport can be overwhelming or non existent.
Carer support to ensure adequate nutrition as people often stop eating
Carer support to encourage motivation
Cost of things to reduce rumination ( crafts/ exercise/nature)

Pip is for all of these things. Mental health issues are as debilitating as physical issues.

A basic car would be useless for transporting my son who is a wheelchair user.

The mobility element is the same no matter what car someone uses or if they decide to have the cash instead. If people need more than just a basic car, they pay the often larger upfront payments.

The only cars suitable for my sons needs are WAVs which don't come cheap.

@caringcarer
Ah more misinformation!
The BMWs ..
Are you aware that Motability cars (that there referring to) is a highly profitable charity - so rest assured Motability doesn’t mind funding BMWs in exchange for PIP.
Its not a government funded enterprise.

Depending on country, around 16% to 25% of the population is disabled. Disability campaigners usually go with the figure of 20%. It’s actually higher in the UK, and around 19% in the EU.

Paying out to 10% of the population isn’t actually that bad.

It isn’t benefits that’s killing us. It’s mismanagement.

If any private business ran their company the way publicly funded services are ran, then they’d go bankrupt. Every publicly funded service or business is mismanaged, with huge amounts of waste. Then there is the corruption; we award contracts based on MP’s personal connections and promises of cushie jobs when they leave office. So, huge sums of money wasted on contractors who cannot provide what they are paid for, so we paid twice. Under taxing of huge corporations is another issue.

It’s mismanagement of our country, our services and our tax system which causes the financial disaster the country is in. It isn’t paying the woefully short disability benefits.

If it were government funded, it would be losing money and costing taxpayers more. Like everything else that’s government ran and publicly funded. They can’t run shit.

They need some support when they are in the medical room. There are many many pupils with medical needs. It’s becoming impossible to manage for one person, but there is no extra funding. You probably rarely had anything to do with the medical needs and believe me, since Covid the demand has escalated beyond belief.

The absent parent is paying for their kid not the general household. They can also stop it on a whim. Some do to get back at their ex. Why should a child be at the mercy of their absent parent.
Spouse maintenance is counted for UC.

As it is CM is not counted anyway. Pointless getting wound up over it

and this is exactly why it isn't possible to have a sensible discussion about disability benefits.

The misinformation. These threads tend to be people with strong views about disability payments, some who don't even know the difference between DLA/PIP, think it is super easy to claim (and usually have no experience with claiming themselves) and/or state things that are simply untrue such as on a recent similar thread, someone claiming that you can get a sports car with Motability.

Then the thread is usually just people correcting others about things that simply aren't true.

@TheSpiritofDarkandLonelyWater the kids are part of the general household! It should be included and a more punitive approach taken to parents that do not financially support their children. They need to suffer a financial penalty and have restrictions placed upon them, e.g not able to leave the UK. This is a massive blind spot of the government.

Yes but the absent parent is paying for the kids not the mum.
Otherwise my ex who left me should be paying for me so I dont get UC. But he doesnt because that is not a thing.

I have tried EMDR and pretty much everything else offered of the NHS.

I feel like every time I get back on my feet something else goes wrong it’s just constant and I have given up hoping it gets better now.
My support worker and my psychiatrist both agreed I’ve gone through such a lot of trauma and that life has dealt me a really raw deal, it’s hard not to be bitter sometimes when I’m trying so hard.

I try not to compare myself with my friend but I just get sick of others comparing our circumstances and there is a lot more to it than I posted. It can be hard when people say she is more deserving of benefits when she is diagnosed with a physical disability but then I see her travelling the world and doing all sorts of things that my mental health prevents me from doing. I was comparing my circumstances just with her and not with anyone else with physical disabilities.
Her children receive benefits but they also work and go to concerts and have days out and the money they receive is fun money, I find that frustrating sometimes and that’s probably what leads to attitudes on this thread.

I am so sorry to hear about your daughter, life truly is cruel but it sounds like she has an amazing mum who loves and supports her. There is absolutely no question that you shouldn’t be receiving DLA and I hope that no one has ever said anything that makes you think otherwise.
I understand what you mean about not feeling gratitude towards relying on benefits - why would you? That’s to do with the circumstances behind it not the money.
I think this is why I get so angry with these threads.

I wish more people understood that the majority of us who are forced to claim benefits to survive would rather work and have a life where they weren’t required, there is so much resentment as though we are living it up when the reality is that for most people it’s complete opposite.
I think this is maybe where I started to get upset comparing myself to my friend which is pointless when our lifestyles are so different, I suppose I feel jealous that she has enough money to enhance her life rather than just to survive.

I wrote my post in an angry rant and now I wonder if the reason I got so angry is similar to a lot of people who posted, when you legitimately claim benefits you take it personally when they are discussed and there is talk of who “deserves” them or not. It’s always mental health claims that are accused of being exaggerated or false.

I will hide any similar threads and not let ignorance upset me.
When my PIP came up for renewal I went through months of terror reading that benefits should be cut or made into vouchers and scrutinised because of how many people think that people with mental health issues are undeserving of them. It makes me feel even more of a burden as and as though society would be better off without me.

I think your final comments were spot on as obviously most people don’t want to be taxed more. I wish that it wasn’t always people on benefits that get blamed for other people’s financial struggles when the rich get richer with big bonuses, benefits are actually unclaimed, people work cash in hand and out of the tax people pay it’s only a small percentage that goes on benefit money and it’s ignorant not to look at where the rest goes!
I don’t blame people who are struggling for money to fall for propaganda against disabled people, they are encouraged to look at benefits and immigration as the reasons they are struggling. I’m not denying that we are facing problems with both but people are being manipulated to think they are the downfall of society.
There are of course plenty of cunts that are just resentful.

Thank you for your post it has given me some perspective. I was having a bad day and it’s easy to fall into the self pity trap, reading your post made me realise I’m not the only person struggling and I need to remind myself that more often.
You sound like a strong person and an amazing mother.

I said child maintenance payments should be taken into account when deciding on UC eligibility. Not all parents are useless, many will pay a regular, fair amount so why should those households automatically get the same amount as a single parent household in which the other parent is deceased or has disappeared without trace. It’s the automatic payment of UC without looking at the individual circumstances that is causing a lot of waste.

Then if the absent parent pays CM then deduct it from the child element of UC for that child. It makes no sense to deduct it from the housing element or the standard one. Or if the mum had a disabled child from a different dad.

No. The admin costs of sorting that out and monitoring it would outweigh the savings.

Again, this country’s issues are not caused by benefits. They are caused by wide scale mismanagement of all the publicly funded services which would have gone bankrupt had they been private concerns. And corrupt handling of public contracts. And failure to properly tax corporations. It’s mismanagement, not benefits, that’s the problem.

We have plenty of money. We use it really really poorly.

I suppose because they can always just decide not to pay for whatever reason. It would also cost money to implement a new system including more staff going through circumstances in more details etc so may not even be worth it because it might not even save any money in the long run.

It’s not a race to the bottom .
Japan is a far far better society .

Maybe one of the ways is actually to hold employers accountable to the Equality Act 2010
Reasonable adjustments may include- a work trial (particularly for the anxious, selective mutism, people who struggle with processing etc)
Actually releasing questions to this group of people before an interview
I have patients on 0 hour contracts who are in a wheelchair working in offices who aren't allowed to use a sit-stand desk in case an able-bodied worker wants it
What about ensuring that managers actually understand the sickness process and when staff are off sick with mental health issues they don't phone and ask their staff to log on to do a quick job
For some disabled people- not all, actual proper reasonable adjustments would ensure that they could work, however still being disabled increases costs and is it fair to have the disabled person cover this themselves? It could be for a wheelchair payment (as the NHS provision for wheelchairs are shocking), could be for crutches- again the NHS provision is poor and they aren't very ergonomic and can be painful, it could be for extra fuel costs as they can't walk, for extra washing costs for those who are incontinent, to buy a mobility scooter so they can get out and socialise, for a support worker to take them out, for extra costs to make their house dark and reduce epileptic fits, for adaptive clothing to go over stoma bags, for footwear to go over splints, for extra heating bills, increased electric bills. The list goes on and is no means exhaustive
Instead of tackling PIP- can't we tackle society becoming a more inclusive place?

I agree. I think if a single person wants to claim benefits then the child maintenance of the non resident parent should be paid into a state account to refund the public purse some of what it is paying out. Non payment should be a serious matter like non payment of tax is.

Parents should non be allowed to decide they are 50:50 so no one pays. THe parents should decide who is the resident parent and if they can't a court should.

This used to happen, but it was changed years ago.

And rightly so. Fathers stopped paying anything when they realised it could be subbed by benefits instead.

"There should be a cap on price of the car to say £25k. Even with the up front payments which only partially pay for additional costs, I can't see why such expensive cars are needed."

A basic car will not meet the needs of all disabled people. My adult son needs the space to accommodate himself, 4 carers and his wheelchair. His Caddy would cost more than £25k.