Is it possible to have a sensible discussion about disability benefits?

[Pjnow]

According to Google 10% of working age people are in receipt of PIP and 6% of 0-15yos receive DLA.

I'm a proper lefty who believes absolutely in the welfare state, a safety net and that we should care properly for those with disabilities. A society should be judged on how it cares for its most vulnerable.

However 10% in receipt of disability benefits can't be sustainable. I know many people receiving PIP also work, it's not about that.

I'm just wondering what (if anything) can be done to make sure those who need support get it, without paying it to 10% of the population. I know not all disabilities are visble etc, but 10%?!

Absolutely
I work in mental health.

For anxiety and depression, GPs will refer people to mental health services when they fail to improve with the help that they can provide. The reasons usually relate to poverty or childhood trauma or other social difficulties. A course of CBT nor antidepressants will not easily solve this. Unfortunately, I don’t think medicalisation of societal difficulties will help solve them.

People need to feel secure, have shelter, adequate food, social links and meaningful occupation.

That also holds true for neurodiversity - except those at the extreme end. Society has become much less forgiving.

This .
Im currently in Japan and the difference in societies between here and home is stark .
The Japanese are slim fit and healthy and all go off to work . I have seen 2 people in wheel chairs suited and booted off to work . Absolutely no visible homeless , drunks, mental problems , aggression. . They are a functioning society who take huge pride in their environment and each other . They are really happy .
Something has gone badly wrong in the UK.

The 4 point rule was silly.
The gov are making it that you have to be on PIP to get the sickness part of UC and they planned having to have 4 points in one daily living descriptor to get it.
That means many people on PIP who are unable to work now will be thrown off PIP and also UC and forced to look for work with threat of sanction if they dont.
Many will not have worked for years and years. Who is going to employ them?

The welfare benefits spend is far greater on pensions than disability benefits- not to mention the spend on universal credit.
I wonder why there aren’t weekly posts pontificating on how to reduce the universal credit spend?

The problem with PIP, employment support allowance and universal credit health element is not the claimants, but the system of assessment relied upon by DWP to determine who gets what. I know this as a severely disabled claimant of PIP and contribution ESA. I work and run a business that creates income for our suppliers, and our employees. The DWP think I shouldn't work because I am so disabled that no one would reasonably expect me to, and their occupational therapist told me that he would retire in my position. I work to remain independent and purposeful, but restricted to 15 hours per week due to their rules. The problem with the PIP and ESA assessment is that it is too weighted on self report, and less on medical evidence. I haven't been reassessed in 5 years, and while I will not get better no one has ever checked from their side either. The Access to work system is so delayed in processing applicants that it took 15 months for a manager to even reply to me about an inquiry, and I had forgotten what I asked for at that time. He admitted the backlog in dealing with applications was horrendous. It stops disabled people from working by not providing what they need. These benefits like PIP and ESA enable those with medical conditions to be economically inactive and encourage them to stay home. It is implicit in the assessment system that if you can go to work, you are not disabled or unwell enough to qualify. I faced that, but the assessor saw some of my severe injuries during the interview but challenged how I run a business. I still had to appeal for the correct rate of PIP. For most people, some form of work (voluntary or paid) is beneficial for mental and physical health. I do not believe there is a vast amount of fraud amongst applicants, but rather that the whole approach to determining who gets what needs major revamp. Do not get me started on how PIP and ESA claimants are hated by society for disabled prejudice. I had a verbal fight with a man over blue badge parking recently who claimed 'people like me' should not be allowed to drive a car. I think the narrative in the media about benefit fraudsters has deflected from what is really wrong here. The whole assessment system needs a revamp.

My child receives it for a lifelong and limiting physical disability. I have family members in their twenties and it’s not uncommon for them and their friends to target getting PIP for a wide range of mental health/neurodiverse conditions that are exaggerated. They genuinely see it as what they are owed after being screwed over by previous generations and have no likelihood of owning a house/same quality of life as gen X/any decent standard of living. It’s not my view but it’s interesting.

But why do they need one to one support if that is the case?

I was a teacher for 30 years. The ones who had one to one clearly needed it.

Why not pip ? I pay for some private healthcare with my pip id be waiting an absolute age or not get anywhere waiting on the nhs even putting me on a waiting list, I have feet issues from past operations so I pay for podiatry once every few months. Our nhs trust offers diabetic appointments and wound care , I am on a waiting list for nhs chiropody but it is years long, so I use some of my pip.

So in my case and the case of many thousands of women im aware of, we were made disabled by the NHS and the mesh they trussed us all up with after telling us it was the gold standard for stress incontinence and prolapse. Should we all have to suffer through life without financial support because the percentage of disabled people is too high?

I wonder why there aren’t weekly posts pontificating on how to reduce the universal credit spend?

Indeed. Anyone would think that it is of no consequence whatsoever, to the taxpayer. Where is the outrage about working people needing to be topped up, due to employers not paying them to be able to survive, without the help?

I mean, or funded hours do children need funded hours maybe working parents should downsize share a room with their pre schoolers and look after them themselves until they go to school, would save millions.

It’s not always short term.

And my dd was like this in ND burnout. People are different. And counselling did nothing for her. Neither did medication.

Just because it doesn’t affect you doesn’t mean it doesn’t affect others.

I dont think it is as simple as employers not paying enough. A min wage job used to be enough to live on. Our bills and food costs keep going up and that is not the fault of employers.
Small businesses like cafes and cleaning companies can not pay more than min wage because their jobs are just not valued.
If you work in an office then a cleaner is probably coming in and cleaning when you are at home for min wage. They dont do enough hours in that job alone and they will be on min wage. It is your office bosses that are not paying the cleaning contractor enough to pay the cleaner. But if their wage went up would you be happy if yours stayed the same?

I think th number of people classified as disabled exploded during COVID. All I can think is that instead of needing 8 points for lower amount or 12 points for enhanced amount it is made to be 10 points for lower and 14 points for enhanced and more medical evidence produced. I do think the mobility aspect should be for more basic cars not BMW's costing over £40k. There should be a cap on price of the car to say £25k. Even with the up front payments which only partially pay for additional costs, I can't see why such expensive cars are needed. I think I read somewhere milder cases of anxiety or depression might be looked at more carefully.

No shame any more. That’s a big factor.

I think any change to the system is going to be extremely difficult. My son receives DLA and at 7 is largely non verbal autistic so I have a little lived experience too.

But for what it's worth my thoughts are that people say that DLA/PIP is for the extra costs associated with a disability but I think it should link much more closely with what costs there are associated with the disability.

That would cut the funding to nothing for some conditions and increase the funds available for other people much more in need of it.

I'm coming from the context that anybody that can't work is entitled to universal credit and help with their rent and council tax so it is specifically whether they need extra money in the form of DLA or PIP because there are extra costs associated with their disability.

So personally I would wonder if someone is suffering from depression/anxiety has extra costs relating to that condition over and above another person. What are the £££ costs of being depressed or having anxiety. If the need is for therapy I think it would be a better use of public funds to pay for the therapy direct as that is more likely to be time limited.

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned they suffered from agoraphobia and anorexia and again I wonder what are the day to day costs of this that are higher than another non disabled person? I accept that if they are very poorly they may be unable to work and in that case they would be entitled to universal credit. The person may at some point need in-patient treatment for anorexia but that would need to be funded direct rather than privately.

I think if we could then free up some money to support people running life saving equipment, in need of keeping their house warm due to being very ill/end of life, lots of washing due to incontinence etc better.

My own experience with my son - he won't ever be able to work and his needs are high but I did question to myself when he was 4 or so whether he cost us more than any other 4 year old. The main cost of our child is not being able to work more as we can't use mainstream childcare around school like we did with our older child - he would need 1:1 childcare. So our household income is lower than it would otherwise be (as we only work in a tag team of one or the other at work) but I'm not sure DLA is designed to compensate households for being unable to work as much as they would otherwise. We don't get universal credit but some families would if their child's disability limited their earnings enough.

I do also notice that when we go out swimming, or to a local zoo we have a membership for, that a high proportion of the children also have disabilities. I think the reason for this is a mixture of parents of disabled children needing to keep them busy and themselves sane as their child can't just play with peers or play nicely around the house but I also think some of it is that some people receiving DLA can afford to take their kids out more often. Families without it often can't.

When my child gets older and leaves school the support we could probably benefit from most would be some hours of care for him to give us a break from caring and his DLA/PIP wouldn't run to a lot of hours of that. I guess we hope that the local authority will pay for a day centre or similar for some days a week and I see through my work that the number of days provided for people has been cut down for many people since Covid.

It doesn't help that out of work benefits for adults without children are shockingly low. Anybody would struggle to survive on them so I think if we could cut the number of people receiving extra money for conditions that don't really have much of a cost it would be great to redistribute that to upping out of work benefits for adults without children which really are dire. I know we need to save money as a country and re-spending the money doesn't save it but it cushions the drop for people whose money is cut and gives more people on out of work benefits a fighting chance of managing.

Don't Japan have a huge issue with "shut ins" or Hikikamoro?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori?wprov=sfla1

Which is basically a whole load of adolescents/adults who are reclusive and spend their whole lives inside withdrawing from society? That seems like a pretty huge mental health issues if you ask me 🤔

A friend is paralysed, can you find a motability car for under £25k that can house an adult, children in car seats and my friend in his powerchair that he can’t transfer out of.

I’m not sure they are functioning. Isn’t there a huge rise in women refusing to get married?

instead of going after the disabled, we need to ensure men pay child maintenance for their children and if they don’t pay, they should lose a percentage of their state pension and have their assets seized.

Secondly, if people are in receipt of child maintenance payments, this needs to be taken into account when deciding on UC eligibility. I cannot understand how it is not already included.

That as well

So perhaps not as functioning as PP thinks?

Also as a society they aren't very open about mental illness so the numbers of such people is probably much higher than reported

Also what does ‘I’m a proper lefty’ mean exactly?That you are a caring, compassionate person??!!

OP I think this answers your question. No it’s not possible (on mumsnet) to have a sensible conversation about disability benefit.

Because the men paying CM can stop it on a whim to get back at their ex. It is not a reliable source of income. It is also for the kids costs and not their mums costs so she might still need UC for housing and bills.

Yes, it's called the 4b movement - no sex, no relationships, no marriage and no childbirth. There's also as a PP said the Hikkamoro and the general culture of work in Japan that see's people working 70 hours a week if not more with many working themselves into an early grave.