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Is it possible to have a sensible discussion about disability benefits?

869 replies

Pjnow · 30/10/2025 19:09

According to Google 10% of working age people are in receipt of PIP and 6% of 0-15yos receive DLA.

I'm a proper lefty who believes absolutely in the welfare state, a safety net and that we should care properly for those with disabilities. A society should be judged on how it cares for its most vulnerable.

However 10% in receipt of disability benefits can't be sustainable. I know many people receiving PIP also work, it's not about that.

I'm just wondering what (if anything) can be done to make sure those who need support get it, without paying it to 10% of the population. I know not all disabilities are visble etc, but 10%?!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
2x4greenbrick · 02/11/2025 18:01

SerendipityJane · 02/11/2025 17:59

There are indeed lots of things people "can" do. If they have the time. The mental acuity and the money. Plus a 24/7 advocate who tries their best.

You "could" for example book a black can (because Uber Access aren't everywhere yet) and then be told that all the drivers are the other side of the city so suck it up buttercup, you ain't going to no appointment (obviously non attendance gets you put to the back of the queue).

Mind you that's better than getting to an appointment, coming out, and then being told that your pre-booked ride isn't coming for at least 2 hours during which you are stuck in the doorway of the clinic that cis closing in half an hour.

And that is just for teeth, Add that to eyes, and even a GP appointment and see how much energy you have left over.

And remember this is just to arrange one visit. You have to rinse and repeat the next time. And the next. And the next.

My friend sometimes darkly jokes about committing a crime to get sent to prison.

If you bothered to read my posts you would see I have acknowledged sometimes people can’t do things because they don’t have the energy or time or…

SerendipityJane · 02/11/2025 18:06

2x4greenbrick · 02/11/2025 18:01

If you bothered to read my posts you would see I have acknowledged sometimes people can’t do things because they don’t have the energy or time or…

And yet you waded in assuming you were casting pearls before swine. Forgetting the golden rule of (dis)ability. Everyones situation is unique.

2x4greenbrick · 02/11/2025 18:07

SerendipityJane · 02/11/2025 18:06

And yet you waded in assuming you were casting pearls before swine. Forgetting the golden rule of (dis)ability. Everyones situation is unique.

No I didn’t. You are making things up again.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

Everlore · 02/11/2025 18:48

In the unlikely event that the OP was posing a genuine question in their original post and not just finding another way to start yet another tedious disabled bashing thread, I think we can state categorically thirty-four pages into this toxic thread that the answer is definitely in the negative.
MN's refusal to moderate even the most extreme of ableist hate speech, such as the poster upthread who advocated for the eugenicist eradication of disabled children emboldens these bigots and allows them to spread their poison, completely unchecked, on this site.
MN is not a safe or welcoming place for disabled users given that the authorities have made the decision to side with posters who want us dead. At least we know where we stand.
Just wanted to reiterate that we see your inaction MN mods and can draw the obvious conclusions from it about the powers that be's indulgent tolerance of extreme ableism.

Lougle · 02/11/2025 18:53

VanCleefArpels · 02/11/2025 12:47

PIP is intended to cover the additional costs related to having a qualifying health condition. So why not make it so actual additional costs are reimbursed rather than a regular income? For example, you need aids in the home to use the shower, toilet etc. Pay for these. You need help getting dressed: pay for a home help. Your condition means you can’t use public transport: pay for any taxis required. Your crippling anxiety means you can’t interact with others socially: pay for appropriate therapy. Individuals will get different amounts but they will all be justified and accounted for.

You're amazing and I wish we had sensible people like you in Government. First steps to implement your plan:

  • an assessment process to decide who has qualifying health condtions
  • an assessment process to decide what is 'reasonable' in terms of additional costs
  • an assessment process to decide who can reasonably supply the goods and services needed (because now that public funds are going to be spent directly on goods and services, we need to make sure that only the right suppliers are being given public funds)
  • a tender process to make sure the Government are getting the best value for money
  • administration to draw up the contracts with suppliers of goods and services
  • administration to inform claimants of the outcome of their application, the services that have been approved, the contractors that are going to be supplying the goods and services
  • administration to process the invoices of goods and services
  • an audit process to make sure that the funds were spent on the services dictated by the assessments
  • a complaints process for claimants to challenge decisions about the goods and services
  • a complaints process for failure to provide such goods and services as have been deemed necessary.

I can see how much money will be saved already.

Lougle · 02/11/2025 19:00

Examples of where this is already working beautifully:

Wheelchair services:

  • assessment made in early October, but order can't go in until late October because they need to do bulk ordering.
  • OT specifically says 'DD1 needs a power chair, because she won't be able to propel for long'
  • OT then says 'but our policy is that only people who require hoisting indoors get power chairs, so she won't be able to have one.'
  • I now need to find £5500 to pay for a wheelchair assist device so that she can independently move her wheelchair. Either that, or a power chair, but that would then require a Wheelchair Accessible Vehicle, which would cost the tax payer even more money because she would be eligible for a grant towards the advanced payment.

Access to work:

  • a man worked full time with the support of a personal assistant through access to work. 5 days per week.
  • Access to work decided to cut the support to 2 days per week.
  • The man can't work without his personal assistant, so he can't work full time anymore.
TigerRag · 02/11/2025 19:21

Lougle · 02/11/2025 19:00

Examples of where this is already working beautifully:

Wheelchair services:

  • assessment made in early October, but order can't go in until late October because they need to do bulk ordering.
  • OT specifically says 'DD1 needs a power chair, because she won't be able to propel for long'
  • OT then says 'but our policy is that only people who require hoisting indoors get power chairs, so she won't be able to have one.'
  • I now need to find £5500 to pay for a wheelchair assist device so that she can independently move her wheelchair. Either that, or a power chair, but that would then require a Wheelchair Accessible Vehicle, which would cost the tax payer even more money because she would be eligible for a grant towards the advanced payment.

Access to work:

  • a man worked full time with the support of a personal assistant through access to work. 5 days per week.
  • Access to work decided to cut the support to 2 days per week.
  • The man can't work without his personal assistant, so he can't work full time anymore.

If only disability was just about needing a wheelchair

And how would it be decided whether a piece of equipment is needed? I know my needs fat better than some random person who has never met me

Why can someone be trusted to spend their universal credit on what they need but as a disabled person, I can't?

How exactly will this save money?

Kirbert2 · 02/11/2025 19:34

TigerRag · 02/11/2025 19:21

If only disability was just about needing a wheelchair

And how would it be decided whether a piece of equipment is needed? I know my needs fat better than some random person who has never met me

Why can someone be trusted to spend their universal credit on what they need but as a disabled person, I can't?

How exactly will this save money?

Edited

I believe pp is pointing out what an absolute farce it would be with her examples and that it wouldn't save money at all.

Lougle · 02/11/2025 19:58

Kirbert2 · 02/11/2025 19:34

I believe pp is pointing out what an absolute farce it would be with her examples and that it wouldn't save money at all.

Yes, it wasn't an exhaustive list of examples, just two examples.

FlatWhiteExtraHot · 03/11/2025 07:51

Everlore · 02/11/2025 18:48

In the unlikely event that the OP was posing a genuine question in their original post and not just finding another way to start yet another tedious disabled bashing thread, I think we can state categorically thirty-four pages into this toxic thread that the answer is definitely in the negative.
MN's refusal to moderate even the most extreme of ableist hate speech, such as the poster upthread who advocated for the eugenicist eradication of disabled children emboldens these bigots and allows them to spread their poison, completely unchecked, on this site.
MN is not a safe or welcoming place for disabled users given that the authorities have made the decision to side with posters who want us dead. At least we know where we stand.
Just wanted to reiterate that we see your inaction MN mods and can draw the obvious conclusions from it about the powers that be's indulgent tolerance of extreme ableism.

Personally I’m happy it hasn’t been moderated. We can all see those posters’ true colours rather than them being able to deny they ever said it.

gamerchick · 03/11/2025 22:41

Has anyone reported the posts? Mumsnet isn't moderated.

Everlore · 03/11/2025 23:57

gamerchick · 03/11/2025 22:41

Has anyone reported the posts? Mumsnet isn't moderated.

Yes, I have. I had a generic response saying they were looking into my report but nothing since and the offending post remains. I assume that means the post in question, which said, in as many words, that the lives of disabled children are worth less than non-disabled ones, does not break MN talk guidelines. Good to know.

SerendipityJane · 04/11/2025 10:01

Everlore · 03/11/2025 23:57

Yes, I have. I had a generic response saying they were looking into my report but nothing since and the offending post remains. I assume that means the post in question, which said, in as many words, that the lives of disabled children are worth less than non-disabled ones, does not break MN talk guidelines. Good to know.

Well for many people it's true.

SleeplessInWherever · 04/11/2025 12:00

SerendipityJane · 04/11/2025 10:01

Well for many people it's true.

What is, that the lives of the disabled are worth less?

Who are these “many people”?

Everlore · 04/11/2025 12:16

SerendipityJane · 04/11/2025 10:01

Well for many people it's true.

Only for wicked people utterly lacking any shred of humanity.
There are lots of appalling views that people hold, but pretty sure MN wouldn't let posters espouse them on here in the way they allow horrifying comments about disabled children to remain unmoderated.

x2boys · 04/11/2025 12:18

SerendipityJane · 04/11/2025 10:01

Well for many people it's true.

What do you mean by that ?

LadyKenya · 04/11/2025 12:30

Everlore · 04/11/2025 12:16

Only for wicked people utterly lacking any shred of humanity.
There are lots of appalling views that people hold, but pretty sure MN wouldn't let posters espouse them on here in the way they allow horrifying comments about disabled children to remain unmoderated.

Really? I beg to differ. I won't name the thread, but make no mistake, some appalling posts have been allowed to stand, that MNHQ should not have allowed. This site is becoming/ is a cesspit.

Everlore · 04/11/2025 12:39

LadyKenya · 04/11/2025 12:30

Really? I beg to differ. I won't name the thread, but make no mistake, some appalling posts have been allowed to stand, that MNHQ should not have allowed. This site is becoming/ is a cesspit.

Fair enough. It doesn't surprise me to hear that MN greet other forms of extreme bigotry with an indulgent shrug, because, as you say, this place is becoming a festering cesspit of hate. Disappointing though.

LadyKenya · 04/11/2025 12:54

Everlore · 04/11/2025 12:39

Fair enough. It doesn't surprise me to hear that MN greet other forms of extreme bigotry with an indulgent shrug, because, as you say, this place is becoming a festering cesspit of hate. Disappointing though.

It really is disappointing. As a Black, disabled Woman, I honestly have to decide if I have the stomach to bother with threads of particular topics. I know that MN is not necessarily real life, as such, but I do think that it offers an insight into what people are thinking, broadly. It seems to be getting more extreme here, I am finding. History has already shown us what can happen to particular groups of people who are made scapegoats, for Society's problems. Those denying that the rhetoric that is being loudly, and unashamedly voiced, either are wilfully ignorant, or really don't care, because they feel that they would be unaffected. It is worrying times, for sure.

SerendipityJane · 04/11/2025 15:13

SleeplessInWherever · 04/11/2025 12:00

What is, that the lives of the disabled are worth less?

Who are these “many people”?

Read AIBU in particular. The start off with "Why isn't PIP means tested", go through a process of deciding what is best for the disabled and end up saying "why should I pay for people to be disabled".

We aren't allowed to create TAATs and it's considered bad form to call out individual posters for their beliefs. I am sure I am not the only poster in this thread who has noted this though.

BlueandWhitePorcelain · 05/11/2025 09:24

Many posters on here seem to lack a basic knowledge of the tax system, finances and economics.

Benefits for the disabled (or anyone else) are an injection of cash by the government into the economy. The disabled particularly those, who live on UC and PIP, are among the poorest in society. They are likely to spend all the money, they receive on goods and services. Many of these carry VAT, which go straight back to the government. Then there’s council tax. People support local businesses with their custom - generating jobs for the employees, who in turn pay income tax, NI, council tax, VAT, stamp duty, as well as supporting other businesses with their custom. Business owners pay income tax or corporation tax on their profits; and then go out and spend their income to live.

So all this is rubbish:

”I am a taxpayer and I am not paying to support the disabled!”

Without the injection of cash into the economy for benefits and pensions, a significant portion of taxpayers wouldn’t have a job!

The spending ripples through the economy generating tax for the government, jobs and growth. So, an injection of cash by the government of say £50 billion generates more than it put in - it could be £60 billion. It’s called the multiplier effect.

As for the suggestion, people could keep monthly records of their spending and claim it back - imo, it would cost more to administer than any potential savings by a long way! If everyone could keep accurate financial records, small firms of accountants wouldn’t have anything to do! They frequently spend hours/days sorting out the mess, that is some people’s financial records, which are illegible, don’t add up, are inaccurate (compared to the bank statements) and either mistakenly or deliberately claim business expenses that are in fact personal and have to be taken out. Even with accounting software, it can be like getting a massive ball of tangled wool and trying to untangle it with your eyes closed!

Even HMRC is only moving towards Making Tax Digital, requiring quarterly records on accounting software or Excel/Word with bridging software. How would some people with just a smart phone generate accurate Excel spreadsheets?

Any DWP employee processing expense claims would require an encyclopaedic knowledge of what each disability requires. For instance, we spent £13,000 converting a storage room into a downstairs bedroom for DD1, and an extra £8,000 on underfloor heating in our extension specifically for her safety. Why - because she had a seizure and fell down the stairs, fracturing two bones. She could have broken her neck. People like her are supposed to live in level accommodation. Likewise, if she has a seizure and falls on a radiator, she can suffer bad burns. We had low surface temperature radiators put in the original house for £1,800, in rooms like the bathroom and hall, where there’s no furniture in front of the radiators.

We have carpets everywhere except the kitchen and utility room. We choose the best underlay to cushion her falls. Imagine having to calculate the difference in cost between average underlay and the best for most of the house, as an extra expense for her disability? Or the cost of the extra heating, laundry and a fan on 24/7 on her in the summer?

Finally, the gap in life expectancy of 19 years between the richest and poorest needs tackling. The people in the most deprived areas are going to develop chronic health conditions earlier, in some cases due to manual labour jobs. How would cutting disability benefits, thereby forcing them to say to choose between heating and food, going to improve their health to get a job? It’s magical thinking - people in worse health due to poverty are less able to work!

NorthXNorthWest · 05/11/2025 12:51

BlueandWhitePorcelain · 05/11/2025 09:24

Many posters on here seem to lack a basic knowledge of the tax system, finances and economics.

Benefits for the disabled (or anyone else) are an injection of cash by the government into the economy. The disabled particularly those, who live on UC and PIP, are among the poorest in society. They are likely to spend all the money, they receive on goods and services. Many of these carry VAT, which go straight back to the government. Then there’s council tax. People support local businesses with their custom - generating jobs for the employees, who in turn pay income tax, NI, council tax, VAT, stamp duty, as well as supporting other businesses with their custom. Business owners pay income tax or corporation tax on their profits; and then go out and spend their income to live.

So all this is rubbish:

”I am a taxpayer and I am not paying to support the disabled!”

Without the injection of cash into the economy for benefits and pensions, a significant portion of taxpayers wouldn’t have a job!

The spending ripples through the economy generating tax for the government, jobs and growth. So, an injection of cash by the government of say £50 billion generates more than it put in - it could be £60 billion. It’s called the multiplier effect.

As for the suggestion, people could keep monthly records of their spending and claim it back - imo, it would cost more to administer than any potential savings by a long way! If everyone could keep accurate financial records, small firms of accountants wouldn’t have anything to do! They frequently spend hours/days sorting out the mess, that is some people’s financial records, which are illegible, don’t add up, are inaccurate (compared to the bank statements) and either mistakenly or deliberately claim business expenses that are in fact personal and have to be taken out. Even with accounting software, it can be like getting a massive ball of tangled wool and trying to untangle it with your eyes closed!

Even HMRC is only moving towards Making Tax Digital, requiring quarterly records on accounting software or Excel/Word with bridging software. How would some people with just a smart phone generate accurate Excel spreadsheets?

Any DWP employee processing expense claims would require an encyclopaedic knowledge of what each disability requires. For instance, we spent £13,000 converting a storage room into a downstairs bedroom for DD1, and an extra £8,000 on underfloor heating in our extension specifically for her safety. Why - because she had a seizure and fell down the stairs, fracturing two bones. She could have broken her neck. People like her are supposed to live in level accommodation. Likewise, if she has a seizure and falls on a radiator, she can suffer bad burns. We had low surface temperature radiators put in the original house for £1,800, in rooms like the bathroom and hall, where there’s no furniture in front of the radiators.

We have carpets everywhere except the kitchen and utility room. We choose the best underlay to cushion her falls. Imagine having to calculate the difference in cost between average underlay and the best for most of the house, as an extra expense for her disability? Or the cost of the extra heating, laundry and a fan on 24/7 on her in the summer?

Finally, the gap in life expectancy of 19 years between the richest and poorest needs tackling. The people in the most deprived areas are going to develop chronic health conditions earlier, in some cases due to manual labour jobs. How would cutting disability benefits, thereby forcing them to say to choose between heating and food, going to improve their health to get a job? It’s magical thinking - people in worse health due to poverty are less able to work!

”I am a taxpayer and I am not paying to support the disabled!”

How many people have actually said that?

All government spending should be reviewed. Its not about make those on benefits suffer it is to ensure that it is fit for purpose and to address the benefits trap.

Overthemhills · 05/11/2025 18:05

I posted much earlier in this thread and I am sadly unsurprised to see that one poster who said, in effect, in her view, that disabled children’s lives are not worth as much as other children/people has since joined the sludge of comments.

If this comment gets deleted I don’t care but this is a thought straight out of the Nazi worldview - “work makes you free”.. right?

What is especially surprising is that she mentioned Down’s Syndrome being detectable and therefore a mother’s “choice” to bring said child into the world implying criticism of that, her words, “free choice”.

She’d certainly have something to say if she met my daughter then…

There was a different thread a while ago in which a few people advocated institutional care for disabled children- allegedly to save money (oh how we laughed) based on yet another poster’s (misleading) assertion that “complex cases” in her local council costed hundreds of thousands of pounds per year and then several people told me that because my daughter is severely disabled that is what she costs.

My daughter, while very severely disabled, does not cost anything remotely like that (not even “thousands”) .

That rhetoric is probably what a lot of people believe, even if they don’t say it.

What the misleading claim (that I mention above) was referring to, as they well knew, was “looked after children” by the State ie children who will undoubtedly have had horrible experiences and childhoods beyond what we can ordinarily tolerate to imagine- are put into care - often voluntarily - by their parents (I know because my husband works in care homes with these children).

Those parents made “free choices” to rape, disfigure, beat, lock up, humiliate, malnourish and terrorise their children.

The parents of disabled children, who very often adore their children and try to find employment around their children, to actively be involved in their community and to contribute to the country and spend hours on calls and in appointments with and for their children are expected to “suck it up” with a loss of a whole salary often (as in my case) and a lifetime of sleeplessness because a child can’t sleep or needs to be moved/given care in the night, who cannot access a full “life” because of the lack of facilities (like hoisted changing places (even in hospitals!)) and then perhaps lose access to Motability if a certain party gets into power - just to force life into a even darker little box.

I sometimes have to remind myself that all I did and all any parent having a disabled child - who grows into a disabled adult - did “wrong” was wanting to have a child, just like anyone else who wants to does. That’s it.

The “but the purse is empty” refrain is a nauseating and cheap get out and I wonder how the smug rhetorical posters who use that phrase will feel if their child or grandchild is born disabled. I’d love to see them look into my daughter’s eyes and tell her she doesn’t deserve to be alive. Mind you, she’d probably laugh as she’s the happiest person I know.

It’s easy to target those on the floor.

The purse wouldn’t be so empty if the utter cunts at the top of the banking world didn’t cause an economic crash in 2008, if people had enough foresight to see through the lies about Brexit, if Tories hadn’t fucked the country in so many ways and with the little PPE contracts and tax measures that kept the divide so great for so long.

The OP has long disappeared because this is just a shit-stirring, let’s rile the anxiety-liars up post. I despise disingenuous people at the best of times but this is one of a series of “let’s poke people” posts that has the world’s great thinkers out in force - if eugenics doesn’t work as a good suggestion, let’s try suggesting that the government just provides aids and adaptations as specified for a need as opposed to risking a modicum of INDEPENDENCE for a disabled person.

Live with a disabled person for 48 hours. I’d like that to be mandatory. I’d love to see them saying DLA is too expensive for my 8 year old who is like a baby in every respect just because it gives her incontinence pads or a chance of getting a wheelchair she needs.

Of course most sane people, in a moment of reflection, could imagine their high scoring 6 foot son, or themselves even, could be in an accident that left them unable to talk or walk. That’d be worthy of support I suppose because it wasn’t a “free choice” (even though getting in a car has those risks and constitutes a free choice).

Anyone would think people went put plucking out severe disability and pain from a hedgerow just to live a life of near poverty..,

If the purse is empty for those who did not choose to be born or rendered disabled then it should be empty for those who choose to work fewer hours to be around for their children, who have children and claim child benefit, who access free school or childcare or healthcare for those children.

Overthemhills · 05/11/2025 18:15

Oh and for the just provide aids etc people- the stated purpose for PIP and DLA are contributions to the cost of living with a disability that the recipient can choose to spend as they choose.
Just like universal credit, pension credit and the state pension…

2x4greenbrick · 05/11/2025 18:35

Even for those whose care already costs a significant sum, those advocating institutions are shortsighted. DS1’s care and education does cost hundreds of thousands pa, but caring for him in an institution would still cost more. And that’s also ignoring all the other reasons institutions are a terrible idea.