Is it possible to have a sensible discussion about disability benefits?

[Pjnow]

According to Google 10% of working age people are in receipt of PIP and 6% of 0-15yos receive DLA.

I'm a proper lefty who believes absolutely in the welfare state, a safety net and that we should care properly for those with disabilities. A society should be judged on how it cares for its most vulnerable.

However 10% in receipt of disability benefits can't be sustainable. I know many people receiving PIP also work, it's not about that.

I'm just wondering what (if anything) can be done to make sure those who need support get it, without paying it to 10% of the population. I know not all disabilities are visble etc, but 10%?!

It just seems off that you have benefited from the system supporting your child such as DLA and I'm assuming SEND education but now that he looks to be aging out to where you'll have to 'top him up' financially, you now don't want other families with disabled children to receive the same support you've received for all of these years.

If you feel so strongly about it, why have you accepted the support for all of these years?

No that’s not what the OP said
For example other ways might be offering more support to disabled people to support them to work, helping some people with their mental health, enabling more part time working or wfh, provision of equipment to help the disabled to work etc

To answer the OP's question, probably yes, though absolutely not on MN which is, on a good day, a poisonous cesspit of ableism, and I use that term advisedly!

Your suggestion that all disabled people need to do is to try a bit harder to overcome their disabilities in order to get a job is, I'm sure, very laudable, but I am unsure how it would work in situations like mine. I was born without eyeballs and with multiple joint deformities. Sadly, no amount of wishing has caused my eyes to suddenly sprout in the intervening years. I guess in your book this means I have not been trying hard enough to pull myself up by my bootstraps, maybe I just needed to try harder!
Contrary to your charming remarks about no employer wanting to employ a disabled person unless they can appear less disabled and despite my disability being impossible to hide or cover up in any way, I do have a job. Luckily, I have a disabled-friendly employer willing to invest the money, time and resources into employing somebody with my level of needs. I am aware that it would be easier and cheaper for my employer to hire a less qualified candidate than me but without the equipment, adaptive technology and physical support I require in order to do my job, though, fortunately, they have decided I am worth the extra effort. I am sure that some of the delightful posters on here will sneer at this as a diversity box-ticking exercise, but I am grateful that at least some employers are willing to make an attempt to be inclusive and accessible to disabled employees.
I receive higher rate PIP in both components. My monthly disability related costs far exceed the sum I receive in PIP. The technology, equipment and support which PIP helps me to pay for allows me to get to and remain in employment. Without PIP I would probably be unable to work and would be costing the saintly tax-payers, of whom, amazingly, I am one, despite being a disabled benefits scrounger, a lot more money. However, I don't want any of the bitter posters on here to worry, as I said, my PIP doesn't cover all my extra disability related costs, much of which I have to meet out of my wages, meaning I am still worse off than someone without my needs doing the same job. Hope that puts your minds at rest, I know how much it irks certain commenters on here to think that a disabled person might be having it too easy!
Honestly, I've no idea what some of the ignorant posters on here want, if disabled people don't work we are lazy work-shy scroungers if we find a job we're getting special treatment, we just can't win!

So @Perzival, you don’t want anyone (except your more-disabled-than-anyone-else son) to be able to claim disability benefits, but you’d like us all locked up in workhouses or asylums instead? How much do you think 24 hour care is going to cost compared with DLA/PIP/AA?

What will be your criteria for being allowed to be institutionalised? What will you do with the ones who don’t fit your rules? Leave us to die in the gutter or take the quicker route of having us euthanised?

The issue is complex, but MH conditions are (in my view) much more prevalent than they used to be due to a combination of - loss of community, loss of hope due to everything become expensive (whats the point in even trying anymore..), SOME mollycoddling (less of a 'just get on with it') attitude, and the obvious one - more are being diagnosed who would haven't have been previously due to stigma etc.

It's not easy being young today. Community is the way forward. I remember when I was young (30 years ago), local businesses used to hire people with disabilities. It was noble and benefitted everybody, and gave the person confidence. Examples I recall are working with animals on a farm (milking cows), re stocking shelves at the local shop, cleaning the local offices after hours. All valued jobs, and usually paid enough that these people could rent a cheap bedsit or flat and have some degree of independence.

Now it's impossible to get a job without jumping through ridiculous hoops for the various corporates. Competition is intense. And even if they manage it, the pay is abysmal and will never allow them to live independently. So I understand many people think 'whats the point' and just don't even bother trying anymore. Particularly if they can then claim benefits from the government.

We've lost something as a society. I think it's cohesiveness and hope for a better future. It's really really sad.

Mh issues cover a very broad spectrum though ,just like autism what about people with severe and enduring mental illness?
Some people will never be stable enough to work
OK this a rare example but when I was a mental health nurse I remember one patient who had visual, auditory and tactile hallucinations continually she hadschizophrenia, now I have nursed many people with schizophrenia but she was probably the most profound person I have met ,yet for the most part she was living on her own with the support of a partner I think she should have been entitled to HRM.

And we are agreed on that.

We want a system that's fair and only pays out to those that genuinely need it! There's too many people claiming it, this isn't about you! There's a lot of people sat on backsides who don't need to be! If it keeps snowballing like it is, you'll all see benefit cuts because there won't be enough people enough working tax payers to pay for it!

I work in a team of 7 us at work, two of us have got ulcerative colitis, I've also got conditions in my hands and wrists, one member has now been diagnosed with Crohn's, one member has no cartilage left in his knee and is in pain, one has arthritis - that's 5 of us that could decide we can't work anymore and this is the issue, if people with lesser issues can get away with having benefits for it, most of us could choose to go the same way and where would that leave the country!

It does concern that the system is being overused and if it doesn't get stricter, it would get frighteningly out of hand.

As one example, I spoke to guy online who works full time yet for whatever reason gets a disability payment on top and he said he uses that to pay for his season ticket for the football team he supports and takes himself off to all their games! What the hell does he need that payment for? When people quizzed him, he couldn't answer!

I had a mother online calling her young ADHD son disabled! People have had ADHD for years without being considered disabled or not living a normal life! People should not be conditioning their kids like that! They'll grow up thinking they need disability benefits or they'll tick the disability box on job applications and it'll hinder their life when it doesn't need to! My brother has likely been ADHD all his 51 years, he's not disabled, he has mates that are diagnosed and they aren't disabled! My brother is waiting for an official assessment but he's told the waiting list is 8 years in his area! That's because so many parents are pushing their kids and themselves down that route. People need to stop writing kids off because that's going to break the system beyond belief if many of today's kids are going to be the claimants of the future!

I mean I literally watched a BBC documentary on it, one young woman with a fake limp and walking stick admitted she could work but was worried she wouldn't like it and would struggle to get her benefits back! A young woman with autism had been sat at home on benefits, then got a job as an air stewardess and realised she was capable of working all along and enjoyed it - somebody had clearly written her off! She still got disability money to pay for getting to and from work which is odd because there's no disability stopping her paying for and catching the trains just like her workmates did.

I'm in a team of 7 at work and 5 of us have health conditions, imagine if all of us with health conditions decided to stop working! If the system doesn't get stricter, the benefits have to get cut because there's not enough people working to pay for it.

You're lucky that you can make provision. My parents can't. They have 2 adult children who are disabled. One of those (me) no one can diagnose me properly which means making provisions difficult

ADHD is by definition a disability but for the umpteenth time it goes off need not diagnosis ,
Somebody won't just get disability benefits just becsuse they say they are disabled and even with a formal diagnosis, you would have to prove how it impacts to meet the criteria.
Incidentally what do you think ADHD is if not a disability?

"Myself, my husband and my family have made provision for my ds when we pass and the same will stand if his situation changes. I recognise this and that many cannot do this."

Most people aren't multimillionaires.

I’m getting really sick of this “we could decide we can’t work any more”. Exactly how the fuck much do you imagine those of us who actually can’t work are raking in on our bountiful benefits??

I get higher rate mobility (which is taken at source to pay for my motability car) and lower rate care PIP, along with CONTRIBUTION based ESA (you know on account of how I worked for 27 years and contributed). That’s it. No UC because my husband “earns too much” and is expected to support me. On a not much over minimum wage job.

If I was still working and my career had continued on the same trajectory, I’d be on around £40-£50k right now. Why the fuck would I willingly give that up for £9000 a year??

"I work in a team of 7 us at work, two of us have got ulcerative colitis, I've also got conditions in my hands and wrists, one member has now been diagnosed with Crohn's, one member has no cartilage left in his knee and is in pain, one has arthritis - that's 5 of us that could decide we can't work anymore"

Well you could decide not to work anymore but I don't think you should bank on getting much in the way of benefits.

Well it is about "me" isn't it? these threads are all about "me" and every other poster with medical conditions or parents advocating for their children, .threads about disability benefits are always about us .

It's a condition not every condition renders someone disabled! I have conditions but I'm not disabled! You can't make everything a disability because that's why this problem is getting out of hand because some of you want to class everything as a disability! I'm in team of 7 and 5 of us have conditions that cause more problems than ADHD generally does so if you want to take the route of everything being a disability then a lot of the country could pack in working.

I imagine the cost of these hypothetical institutions will be far in excess of any disability bill currently !

I think you will find it's a spectrum
Abd by definition a disability,
However it seems that you are unable to grasp the fact a diagnosis doesn't mean someone will eligible for DLA / PIP it is how that diagnosis impacts ,you and to be eligible for DLA/ PIP you would have to prove you meet the criteria with professional evidence
I dont know how to say it any clearer?
It seems like I'm talking in a foreign language???

You do realise loads of people have disabilities, but it doesn't mean they are eligible for disability benefits and can stop working
As I said earlier my oldest son has diabetes and is insulin dependent he's rightly not eligible for PIP as he's very independent and wouldn't meet the criteria ,Diabetes is however classed as a disability and the disability act means he can ask for reasonable adjustments in the work place etc.

You have the mistaken belief that being disabled means you dont have to work and that you are eligible for benefits.

You are missing the other element of disability definition which is the equalities act which protects you from discrimination and allows you reasonable adjustments. There are a huge number of things that mean you can work well full time, arent entitled to benefits but may need to be protected from discrimination or have a reasonable adjustments.

Please dont argue to do away with that important bit of protection because you think having adhd means you get to not go to work!

The definition of disability in the act and the diagnostic criteria of adhd overlap because they both include substantial and long term in thier criteria. Benefits are related to specific care or mobility needs and are different.

I have no idea if the other conditions you mention also would be substantial and long term but if so, you can have the same protection from discrimination.

No it isn't, it isn't about resenting the genuinely disabled getting financial support, it's about the system not getting broken beyond repair! Not every ailment or condition warrants free cash throwing at it or an awful lot of people will end up in the system wanting to claim.

I don't have anything else to say you have a fixed view and it doesn't matter what anybody says 🤷

Again what are you not understanding ?
I have repeatedly pointed out having a diagnosis doesn't mean a person is eligible for disability benefits, it goes off NEED
I'm.not sure how else I can EXPLAIN it????

Sigh, how many times does it need to be said, that it does not matter what the condition is, but how it affects a person. Also plenty of people with disabilities work. It is laughable that you seem to think that people just decide that they can't work, and are given money, just because they claim to be disabled.