Is it possible to have a sensible discussion about disability benefits?

[Pjnow]

According to Google 10% of working age people are in receipt of PIP and 6% of 0-15yos receive DLA.

I'm a proper lefty who believes absolutely in the welfare state, a safety net and that we should care properly for those with disabilities. A society should be judged on how it cares for its most vulnerable.

However 10% in receipt of disability benefits can't be sustainable. I know many people receiving PIP also work, it's not about that.

I'm just wondering what (if anything) can be done to make sure those who need support get it, without paying it to 10% of the population. I know not all disabilities are visble etc, but 10%?!

There is nothing easy about making any changes. There are many pitfalls and a lot of anxiety and worry for anyone that could be affected. As I have said benefits for adults without children without the disability payments are awful and a frightening prospect.

As a country we are in a position where if we don't change something we will end up having to be bailed out by the IMF who will impose their conditions on us like happened in Greece.

But we don't want to scrap the triple lock on pensions, don't want to means test pensions, don't want to/ can't reduce universal credit, don't want to/can't reduce disability benefits, don't want to pay more taxes or believe that any more tax at this point will cause people to emigrate abroad or reduce their working hours as working is no longer worthwhile... so I guess we keep trudging on with more of the same until the country goes bancrupt?

I just don't see a system based more on the costs working very well. It already takes 20+ weeks for parents to actually receive DLA for their child, how long would this new system take?

How much would this new system cost to implement? Would it actually save any money?

Who would decide what my child needs? Would they be qualified? Spend any amount of time with my child? Or would be someone just hoping to save a bit of money with little regards to my child's needs?

I'm not convinced.

I don’t know if it’s been suggested here but can the government look at what people with disabilities need to spend the extra money on and then provide it.

So for example the government already works out what the minimum is that they expect you to live on and pay that to people claiming UC, including people with children.

People with disabilities have a higher need so they need more money. What is it that costs more?

If it’s therapies then provide those. If it’s specialised food then provide it.

There are already discounts for people with disabilities, my ds gets a discounted gym membership for example.

It will cost a hell of a lot to work all of that out.
Why not just trust the people claiming DLA and PIP to know what is best for them.

I don't have those answers of course but could only hope that if the conditions that don't tend to cost money are removed then there would be more money and staff time available for the disabilities that actually cost money.

A big problem is that things like talking therapy and speech therapy should be available at no cost for those that need it. But should be available and is available are of course not the same thing at all.

Because it is resulting in a lot of people whose condition costs them next to nothing getting hundreds of pounds of public money each month.

Maybe things like that should be in place before even considering taking money away from disabled people.

But there is no money.

But as you have been told several times now PIP is not awarded based on cost. It is awarded based on need.
Working out what the costs are for claimants would cost the taxpayer more and also be an unnecessary stress for claimants.

Even if that's correct, it is probably far more cheaper than paying money to change the system and paying for more staff to look into people's circumstances and disabilities more closely, especially if we are talking about qualified medical staff.

I find it hard to believe it would save money.

It's amazing how the government can always magic up money to pay contracts for their mates, make sure they all have amazing salaries, fund lunches, 2nd houses etc.

Yes the current system is not based on cost but need as you have said.

This thread however is to discuss the enormous cost of disability benefits and what, if anything, can be done to reduce them.

I am suggesting that in a situation where our country is on route to bankruptcy perhaps we can't afford to give money to people for disabilities that aren't costing them anything.

It doesn't sound overly difficult to assume that the cost of having depression or anxiety is zero unless the claimant wants to provide some evidence that that is not the case and it is in fact costing them money.

@OverDram
How can you quantify it?
Does this proposed system include lost wages from being unable to work? If not, why not?
One child uses incontinence pads more than another- you think the NHS wants to pop out with supplies and drivers/staff every couple of days to supplement that?
What about individual use of suction catheters?
Electricity for feeding pumps?
Electricity for electric hoists and beds?
Electricity costs for suction machines?
Petrol to go to and from appointments?
To pick up prescriptions?
Costs of wheelchairs? (A powered wheelchair is v expensive- I’m quoted almost £20,000 for my child’s needs).
Car to enable a wheelchair to be used in it (presuming Motability is scrapped, even though it’s a charity)..
Specialist clothing?
Heating costs?
Never mind therapies or eating aids or writing aids..
How exactly does one quantify those costs and adequately pay for them?
How much do you think would be saved? And why do you not think the government is not fully aware that the cost to provide care on a direct “cost” base in this itemised way is far more expensive than the current system..?
Are you suggesting carer’s of disabled children get paid the same as a council employed carer (eg £30 per hour as opposed to £89 a week)? Or is that care just forgotten..?
Lets hear the actual costs as you see it…

My god why is it always depression and anxiety on these threads?
No one gets PIP for those unless it is severe and I can guarantee you that the people with those conditions would swap the PIP money to be cured in a heartbeat.

You would quantify it exactly as you have. If you have a need for those things then you have costs associated with your disability. Not everybody does.

No it doesn't include lost wages from being unable to work because the universal credit system is already there to support people whose income needs topping up or replacing as they are unable to work. DLA/PIP is commonly thought of as for the costs of a disability. Universal credit is about being able to pay rent etc if unable to work.

Edit to say I would hope by cutting out giving money to people whose disability does not have costs associated with it we could actually look after people who need a 20K wheelchair much better.

Haha do you know what a carer gets in UC?

But if the systems were in place GPs could refer people to those.
The needed therapies
The specialist food
The equipment
Adaptive technologies.

GPs and other practitioners are already involved in the care of people receiving disability benefits. So it wouldn’t be as much extra money wasted trying to sort it out.

You would also save money with the unnecessary assessments, reviews and form filling/reading from the civil service.

My son's GP hasn't seen him even once about his needs. He gets letters from various specialists my son sees and that is it. He isn't involved at all.

How long would a referral take for specialist food if your child needs it now but you can't afford the extra expense? At least with DLA, when it finally comes through after 20+ weeks it is back paid.

I think you UK will end up having some breakdown in the system like the us are having right now.
With all benefits just stopping.
Maybe im wrong hope i am but it seems no matter what other county`s do the UK seem to do the same in some what ways.

More than a non carer on universal credit.
£80 a week more is it?

I’m not accusing you of faking at all - but does your disability cost you money when compared to another person that also cannot work?

Unfortunately PIP etc are needed to go towards paying rent and energy bills etc. Maybe if benefits actually covered the cost of rent and bills people wouldn't need these payments. There's so much wrong, e.g too little social housing, rising energy costs and food bills etc, that it will never improve.

Also, as someone who suffers with anxiety and depression, I had therapy several times before it became impossible to get it, I've also taken various types of antidepressants, nothing has helped. I don't think every type of mental health disorder can be cured. We're all different.

Isn't the answer to bringing more money into the country about making sure large companies don't avoid paying tax, I'm looking at Starbucks for example, I read somewhere they didn't pay any tax last year, I don't know how true that is. Or taxing multi millionaires higher? They can afford to pay more. How much money do they really need?! The answer can't be taking money away from people who are already struggling. Whatever you've read about people having 65 inch tvs and lots of holidays on benefits, that's only going to happen if they're working illegally alongside or selling drugs. Universal Credit doesn't cover basic rent costs let alone holidays.

Another point- disabled people get abandoned by the health service and other agencies. Try getting an EHCP updated after the yearly annual review for example. Families and individuals are left to just get on with it. Anyway, the disabled should be protected, I stand by my suggestion that men should pay for their own children and not expect the state to pick up the tab and include child maintenance payments when deciding on UC eligibility.

Like receipts for having a life ? I mean i sometimes buy a ready meal if im not feeling great or a take away would you want that receipt or would that not be permitted ? Who would pay the extra salaries for civil servants to check these "receipts" ?