… as the family dissolves.

[rickyrickygrimes]

I listened to an FT podcast today about demographic change, which was fascinating and quite 😱. One phrase that caught my attention was : ‘“There is a huge vulnerability that I don't have an answer for, and that's what happens as the family dissolves, as the family evolves. I don't know what fits into that space.”

The interviewer asked him to explain what he meant by this, and it was basically: when so few women are having children, and the generational family structure that humans have evolved to rely on for thousands of years essentially ceases to exist, what will replace it? And where will people find meaning in life, when family doesn’t exist? And an answer to loneliness?

I can see this playing out in my own family, with 5 out of 6 grandparents now entering their 80s, with only 3 grandchildren between them. My sister chose not to have children, my SIL has only 1. All for reasons that are very valid on an individual level - but at a population level the consequences are huge and will impact everyone. And I choose to live outside the UK - I’m not on hand to provide any kind of care for my own parents - again for valid personal reasons but which will have big consequences at a societal level.

What do you think will replace the family structure, as it dissolves?

From The Rachman Review: Our shrinking and ageing world, 24 Jul 2025
podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-rachman-review/id1504048545?i=1000718767539&r=1001
This material may be protected by copyright.

Chosen family is a big thing in the LGBTQ community, because some of them have no DNA family to rely on. Yet the trait of being gay or lesbian survives.

Another element of the breakdown of multiple generational families is divorce becoming so widespread.

I'm 30 and after my parents divorced and then moved in step parents, I was very unhappy at home. If my parents had stayed together there were plans to help all us children with house deposits, but that all fell apart. My mom went on holidays with her boyfriend and his children and I was left at home. She stopped even cooking for me at 11, whereas when she was married to my dad she cooked nice things for us, and she still did for her boyfriends.

Not trying to derail the thread so I'll stop there, but basically it was miserable and I don't think it's uncommon for parents after divorce to resent their children and become very selfish. I'm definitely not looking after them in old age when they didn't do it for me as a child.

Not sure if this is purely a recent thing? Or maybe just not so common as now?

I think this is a very important, and often underlooked, point.

If “family support work” is so important then it doesn’t matter what sex the person doing it is, does it? Why do you think it should fall on women? So women who don’t want this life (and many, many women throughout history would’ve likely chosen differently had they had the choices we do today) should do what, just give up any hopes and dreams because this is the so-called natural order of things?

You’re also very dismissive of the idea of community outside biological family but when you look at nature, humans are in a minority of species that live in small groups of immediate family. Not everyone feels like you. Some people’s biological families are horrid. It’s a choice to limit your caring and sacrifice only to immediate relatives - people can bemoan lack of community all they like but unless they actively make the effort to be part of building one then it isn’t going to happen. And we should be making the effort to evolve beyond the trappings of the nuclear family as far as I’m concerned.

I have seen a big change in families and life in general over say the last 20 year's. People are not having as many children and having children older in a lot of cases. My own neicces and nephews have far less cousins than there parents. Then most parents are both working and one could be working PT.
Along with this grandparents and pil are living longer and often as a result of this they can be in poor health for a few years before death. i know several people from their mid 70's and up now with cognitive decline or diagnosed with altizmers, vascular dementia ect. There husbands, wives and adult kid's are trying to deal with them, organise care and possibly a care home after a few years because it's no longer possible to keep them at home.

People then say that some people have become extremely selfish and can't understand why they won't have some the relatives around say for Christmas day or staying for a few days then.

I have seen people doing this for years and then getting nasty comments about the meal, how their kids are behaving or the amount of money spent on the kids presents. The same guests have arrived empty handed or with the cheapest gifts possible. Then have then eat or drank like they have not been fed in a month.
One of my friends is glad now that her mother and another family member go to another family member on Christmas day because of her mother's behaviour that day. The other family member said to her she had them for enough Xmas days and it was time for her to enjoy Xmas day with her family.

The same mother is now getting older and has the expectation that my friend and another sister will provide care and be her taxi service if required. This woman is comfortably off yet has never helped her daughters out financially. She has seen both daughters dealing with issues and has never steeped up to help them out. She has moaned anytime she is asked to mind grandkids.
It always been about what the mother wants and what suits her. She gets huffed if she does not get her own way.
At this stage my friend is planning to change jobs for both more money and hours so she won't be available for care. Her sister is planning to get back into work when her youngest child is a bit older so wont be available either.

The reality now is that most adults children are now both working to pay the bills and their kids are in childcare. They can't drop all to look after elderly parents. I know elderly parents then that refused to move to a more suitable houses say in their mid 60's before they had health issues and are now 80 plus in big family home that are hard to heat, have steps, bathroom rather than wet rooms and don't work for someone of there age with poor sight or mobility issues.

@BleakHoose yep - anyone who thinks that isn’t the case and has always helped their kids out in time and/or money - hop on over to the elderly parents board to see some spectacular cases of selfish , entitled and stubborn behaviour - often from elderly people with plenty of money too

I listened to a podcast today about something called the dead internet theory, and reading this thread has made me think more about it.

The theory is something like - most of the internet is now bots that are manipulating whole populations into certain behaviours that benefit the wealthy elite (I know, real conspiracy territory). Going by the last ten years and the huge changes we’ve seen I wonder if this is something that has had an effect.

For example brexit - we know that bots (Russian?) were rife and created discord. We know that most issues are more divisive now than ever before, particularly when posting on the internet. It does very much look like the worst parts of current society are developed and fought out on the internet.

We are more disconnected physically than ever. Yes there are non-biological “families” that have chosen each other, but when you look at them they are very often ideological groups with cultish tendencies who only accept each other when behaving within a narrow accepted framework. There’s also the issue that many families have split up because parents do not behave within this restrictive framework and their children have gone no contact because of that.

I wonder if we’ll reach a tipping point and the whole current mess will implode and we’ll once again have to rely on each other in our family circles.

I really second this. Theres a lack of distribution of weath from the elderly to younger generations. As a low paid women constantly suriving week by week with her partner, we don't have time to even consider if we could have children if we wanted- let alone support toxic older family members. They showed no support in our youth- over charging rent, financial manipulation... even if we wanted to support them in their 70s, it just wouldn't be an option. Some might call it karma.

No one goes "no contact" with family because their family members don't "behave within a restrictive framework". That is an astonishingly ignorant thing to say. They go no contact because it's the only thing they can do to preserve their physical and/or psychological integrity.

Thank you for saying this. I work a lot with people that are estranged from family and it is really really hard enough as it is without being told they must be being manipulated by bots!

I know several 20-25 yr olds who’ve done just that though. Maybe it’s not all those who go no contact, but there is a growing number of young adults who do appear to be leaving their families because of ideological differences.

I think it’s a mistake to discount the role of the internet in changes in families when it plays such a big part in most people’s lives now.

I'm always surprised when I read threads like these. Most of us are talking from our own experiences, but mine are so different.

I don't have children but all my friends who do, all now in their seventies, look after grandchildren for part of the school holidays. Before the children went to school they did childcare one day a week or more, some travelling a long way to do so.
One young couple who each work four days a week have had no childcare expenses as the grandparents take the two children for three days every week.

All have helped the younger generation with deposits. These are not particularly wealthy people, retired teachers and similar, and some are the first generation to own a house. In some cases the children live in larger houses than their parents.
Not everyone of the older generation has a four-bed detached in Surrey.

Perhaps the family is still stronger in less affluent areas?

In this day and age most people don’t live near their children anyway. So really what help can their children offer ?

@Lushvegetation As I said upthread, I live abroad but can still organize some support for my elderly Dad, thanks to technology. Stuff like meal deliveries, online shopping, liaise with his social worker and cleaner, etc. I also call him most days as international plans are far cheaper nowadays.

So even though I’m only physically with him three times a year, I can help him up to a point. Technology has made this far easier, thank goodness .

I don’t believe people go no contact for frivolous reasons, that’s usually an argument used to discount and invalidate people’s experiences. But even if they do, so what? Why should people put up with stuff they wouldn’t tolerate in a friend just because they’re biologically related to someone? For far too long the “but family” narrative has been used to downplay toxic dynamics and abuse.

Oh I know, all my comment was about was that I’d heard a podcast and reading this thread made me wonder if there were contributing factors. It wasn’t really meant to be deep.

I think the "ideological differences" motive is the facade. Deep down, it's the bond that's broken or it was never there in the first place.

This is what is interesting about this issue: the fact that there are very clear and provable global tendencies, that seem to be unprecedented at least since we have demographical studies; but at the same time, there are many people who literally have no experience of these tendencies. So it may well be that, as you say, there are pockets of resistance to the societal changes. And the reasons for their existance can be vastly diverse (class, but also culture, religion, purpose, etc).
As I said previously: fascinating topic.

I agree with this.

it worked for so long and is the secret to human’s success.

Whether that’s nuclear or generational families.

I honestly feel just because you can treat something it doesn’t mean you should . I’ve
worked in healthcare long enough to have seen those with absolute zero quality of life just existing .
Death in old age is not failure it’s natural,expected and often , sadly a relief .

The provision by women of vital but unremunerated labour is a major part of what underpins male dominance.

OP are you Andrea Leadsom?

Remember she was (rightly) pilloried for suggesting only people with children have a stake in the country's future?

I agree.
and the work should be highly valued. Is that possible whilst men dominate?

May I ask - what if adult children in France have estranged/gone NC with their parents and there is proof; texts, letters etc - can the parents disinherit them? TIA