Mandatory vaccinations to access nursery and school?

[rickyrickygrimes]

I’m British but have lived in France since my youngest was 5 months old. Both my children had to have a full programme of vaccinations (I think it’s 11 in total) before starting nursery / school. I’m surprised to find out that there aren’t any mandatory vaccinations for children going into a group setting here in the UK and wondered how that would go down if it was required? Especially now that there seen to be rising numbers of children are not being vaccinated against serious illnesses such as measles.

The only opt-out in France is by medical certificate, issued by a doctor. This may be open to abuse - drs in France have a lot more liberty practice as they see fit compared to the UK.

Home education was recently made illegal, or at least much more difficult in France.

@MissScarletInTheBallroom is correct that France is quite vaccine-sceptic, and this policy is directly aimed at dealing with that - the trust, ‘do the right’ thing model wouldn’t work there. I just wondered, with the decline in voluntary vaccination in the UK, how a similar policy would be received there?

I had all my covid vaccinations (and still do) but when my 6 year old son was offered it (he is disabled) I didn’t want him to because I felt we didn’t know anything about the long term impact of the vaccine. Inthe end I didn’t take him but I reasoned that he was only being offered it because he ticked a box, his medical condition (autism) would not impact on his ability to fight infection. Had it been offered to all children I would have chosen differently (as I did with all routine vaccinations)

I don't think vaccines should be an issue unless there is some kind of major outbreak or epidemic, otherwise it's more of a witch hunt. Post covid I have become much more open in my thinking as I can see what happens when people get brainwashed by fear (on both sides of the fence)

Immunocompromised children also shouldn’t have to miss out on an education because of the choices of others.

Unvaccinated children shouldn't have to miss out on an education because ot the choices of others either.

My children have had all vaccinations, apart from Covid and sometimes the flu vaccine, but I wouldn’t support mandatory vaccination. It’s much better to educate people so that they see the advantages of vaccination for themselves and choose to do it.

I would be delighted to see a move towards mandatory vaccinations. Obviously not forcing people who really can’t, but greater rates of vaccination in the community will protect those people too. Not vaccinating by choice is selfish and puts everyone at risk.

I chose to vaccinate my children against chickenpox and would support this being added to the standard vaccinations as well.

They have “human rights” in France too you know….

@rickyrickygrimes in the past the British public have been both generally compliant with sensible public health programmes and not idiotic enough to believe scaremongering, so this probably hasn’t been a priority. I believe we should change this asap as it’s vital for herd immunity that we bring up the vaccination rates, and obscene that children are dieting of measles in 2025!

But if it's mandatory it would have to be forced, that's the problem. One day you might be the person who doesn't want it for your child or grandchild, so be careful what you wish for. Not all governments are good.

How is it against their human rights?
If they do not want to get their kids vaccinated they simply have to make other arrangements for their education.

I was very caught up in the hype and was lining up for mine and my booster, but I didn't want it for my newborn and am so glad it wasn't required. My older nephews and neices were basically forced to have it. I'm sure it and they will be fine, and I would have been much more pro forced vaccines pre-covid but seeing how covid and that shit show played out has made me very wary

“Home education was recently made illegal, or at least much more difficult in France.”

As a home educator, this blows my mind!

That the state can mandate what is best for a child over the parents! Especially since HE has become a safety net for so many children whose needs cannot be met at school and who often have SEND.
No longer is HE a niche little community of ‘crunchy’ mums, it is a varied and diverse community of loving families bending over backwards to educate their children where the state fails to do so.
Another reason this blows my mind is that in my opinion as an ex teacher, the education system is educating students for a world that no longer exists. So why would I want to access that type of education for my children?

I see that yet again HE has been conflated with ‘anti vax’ types. Please stop with this outdated stereotype. My children are fully vaccinated as are their friends. (Except for the Covid vaccine).

An issue is that the parents’ choices not to vaccinate gives rise to health risks to all the DC attending the settings, and other DC and adults in their households. Which increase the more parents don’t vaccinate their DC.

If it’s not legally mandatory and the service providers decide (as I think is the position now) then it could be good for organisations publish the proportion of unvaccinated DC attending their service.

This would provide more information for parents. It would have administrative costs for the organisations and require careful handling to comply with data protection rules, but cost less than managing a legal requirement.

Same for Australia. It's about protecting all, not just individuals.

Herd immunity only works if most are immune.

Not Covid obviously but certainly chicken pox. No idea why you wouldn't want that one.

They're the choices of their own parents, so this is an issue for the parents to deal with. They need to accept the consequences of their own choices.

Yes I agree. I am pro vaccination, even the COVID one, but I completely understand why people were wary of it - and by extension, vaccination in general.

Governments do not always act out of pure altruism, and scientists are not always right.

I wouldn't have wanted the COVID
vaccine while I was pregnant, nor for my newborn to have it, even though she has had all hers now. So it's not a huge leap for me to understand why people don't want vaccinations in general.

But the education isn’t working. Many parents seem to prefer the opinions on SM rather than medical opinion.

I agree with you. It is completely irresponsible to not vaccinate your children unless it is on medical advice (from a proper Dr not google Dr). This should have consequences. You are free to decide not to vaccinate your child but this shouldn't put other children at risk.

My dc were offered it because they have autism as well. A few months before they had it, ds2 was in resus because of something else. He hates being touched so despite being nearly unconscious he was thrashing about etc while they were trying to treat him. Not great at the best of times but it would have been worse if he'd had covid and been well enough to escape. Also my youngest is the opposite to ds2 and loves to hug people. That's why they wanted autistic people vaccinated. Obviously all autistic people are different but it was easier to offer all autistic people the vaccine rather than try and identify who was likely to escape or go around trying to hug people while infected with the virus.

My dc have had all their nhs vaccinations. However ds4 had a reaction to the rotavirus vaccine and the health visitor dismissed it and told me it was just a coincidence. I wouldn't have got a medical certificate but i think i should have been allowed to choose not to give ds4 the second rotavirus vaccine without it affecting his access to education.

I guess the big difference is that France is a very low-trust society. The public don’t trust the government and vice versa. Every single thing has to be ‘proved’ in some way. Children can’t take packed lunches to school without a medical certificate staying that it’s necessary. There’s no self-certified sick leave for minor illnesses - a dr’s note is required from day one of any illness or absence from work. Home educating is only allowed in specific circumstances and the parents have to prove that the curriculum is being followed.

the uk has always been fairly high trust, so the public hasn’t had to be compelled to do things as they have generally been willing to do the ‘right thing’. Maybe that’s changing?

Agree. And that genuine medical reason can be documented.

Private nurseries should be free to have whatever admission policy they like, but all children are entitled to a state school education and their parents choices can’t take away that right.

Appreciate there are cultural / political differences.

But disagree with the idea that mandating things for service user and wider public health reasons equates to central or local government (or organisations providing services) having ‘low trust’ in citizens.

I think that scientifically illiterate idiots are the last people we want to force into home schooling their children.

I also think this is severely impacting a child’s life due to their parents’ decision, which I don’t like.

Quite. Actions have consequences. We need to have more promotion of regardless of what the "internet" says that if you don't vaccinate your child (unless advised by a Dr), you are not a good parent. It is child neglect.

All children are entitled to be protected against serious preventable illnesses.