Transgender 4 year old wanting to join girls only group

[Helpwithdivorce]

So I’ll preface this by saying im very much a live your life however you please as long as you’re not hurting anybody kind of person. However I run a group, which is just for girls aged 4-7.

I’ve had a request from a parent for their child to join. The child is 4 and the parent said they are transgender. Now here is my predicament, which may be rightly or wrongly.

Firstly I feel like this mother is just out to cause drama, there are other very similar mixed gender groups, there is no reason this child needs to join a group only for girls.

Secondly I simply do not believe that a 3/4 year old child knows that they are transgender. I feel this is being peddled by the mother, again feeding the drama.

What would you do? I really don’t want this mother in my group, but the group is ‘inclusive’ so I can’t say no you can’t join.
Currently I’ve just ignored the request.

Can I suggest you start replying to people as you put them on the waiting list, recommending ‘squirrels’ or similar? That way the DC you don’t want to include but don’t want to have to get activist about, can join the waitlist of another group.

The only unreasonable thing about your decision would be if he were to be late joining the list of a group that actually will accept him, because he’s been sat on your list without any chance of getting in.

You need to wait for this to pan out centrally, as you will have trouble if you operate a different policy to Rainbows HQ! Perhaps start planning a similar group which is single sex for your current group to switch to, in case Rainbows/GH try and pull the rug out from under your feet.

This

Who the fucking fuck has a trans 4 year old!
Idiot parents!

Is this a safeguarding issue for the child? Should social services know that this little boy is being raised as a girl. A four year old is clearly not transgender (I assume they don't mean intersex), wouldn't even know what it means. If the mum had said her little boy prefers to play with girls fair enough. But if the organisation you work for says you must include transgender children then you have to if you want to keep your position.

There is no such thing as a transgender 4 year old. This parent needs sectioning. Actually no, there are genuinely mentally ill people in need of limited hospital beds. She/he needs telling to get a grip and social services involved if she's using her child to fulfil some need.

I'm not sure how you should proceed as I'm not involved in any child/young persons groups but hopefully the SC ruling will help going forward- in that we don't have to pander to this ideology- and particularly not when minors are concerned

That poor kid is not trans, the mother is an attention seeker.

GirlGuiding have said that they are "awaiting guidance" which I believe means they are fondly hoping that some magic direction will come from the sky and say that boys can turn into girls.

They've recently issued "guidance", see this, 4 mins in.

If you flat out refused entry and the mother complained, I am afraid that your Commissioners will throw you under the bus because you are going against current policy.
In your place I would have a word with the mother: here are the local Squirrels groups, your child could join but we are awaiting further guidance and it is very likely the Supreme Court ruling will mean Guiding becomes single sex again, and since you are gender critical and you do not believe that a boy can become a girl, you cannot promise that you will teach the other children that her child has become a girl because you don't believe her child IS a girl.

She will probably still complain, but you have the right to hold gender critical beliefs and still be in Guiding leadership.

Although I have not gone back into Guiding after being expelled for my gender critical beliefs, I considered it when my DD was old enough for Brownies, and I was prepared to express my reservations, and considered the likely conversations I would have had to have with girls in the unit, about my beliefs. I tell my own children that so-and-so would like to be a girl, but can't be a girl, and is very sad about that, so we don't need to go on about it.

It doesn't matter what Girlguiding are saying.

ITS UNLAWFUL.

You should be refering ONLY to the law. Use the new guidance which makes it very clear that Guiding has been wrongly applying the law.

There has been a clear new legal judgment on this.

If you breech this YOU could be personally liable.

The word is NO and unfortunately due to the Supreme Court I am not allowed to regardless of my personal feelings on the matter. There is another group that does similar here.

THE END.

NO is a complete sentence.

Other parents WILL be supportive of this. Thats WHY they send their girls to single sex provisions rather than mixed sex in the first place!

Same. Don’t teach young girls they have to lie.

Re pp it’s not her but him.

You could just accidentally delete the email.

You have misunderstood the ruling, which says that you don't have to accept someone who is not a cis woman, not that you cannot include them. HTH.

! !

Also, what if you have Muslim / Orthodox Jewish girls in the unit? All girls need to be safe and there’s a reason R/B/G/RG used to be female only spaces (I can’t believe I just wrote that). I ran a unit, and I have trans friends, but GG needs to be AFAB only. I also think Scouts needs to be AMAB only, if only to allow young boys some freedom to be in an all male environment.

I would be suggesting Squirrels or if there isn’t one locally creatively managing my waiting list until GG come up with sensible guidelines following the ruling. Good luck though

You have misunderstood the law.

I haven’t read the full thread but I am linking the thread about DH and the WI. Please find the long post from yesterday about the phone call. https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5333650-an-update-to-the-wi-announcement-thread-my-dh-just-got-a-reply-to-his-application-to-join-them?postsby=Another2Cats&page=2

The Tier 1 lawyer in the charity field commented he has a number court cases involving charities heading to the court process.

I just thought you would be interested.

Call your commissioner and ask what to do. You can’t do anything that goes against girl guiding policy but they may be more relaxed on a phone call with the threat of a SAR.

Your DC will most likely throw you under the bus if you go against policy and you won’t have a leg to stand on.

I’d rather step down than be a part of the history pandering to this nonsense with very young children. I guess kick the can down the road as long as possible with the waiting list and hope some guidance comes out in the meantime 😬

It pisses me off. Girlguiding is the one place girls can go to just be with girls.

I do wonder if that is quite area specific. My DDs went to guide camp recently and I did ask whether there would be any boys and the guide leader made her thoughts really clear on the utter ridiculousness of letting males in to guides. There are many no male guides or volunteers in any of the three groups who were attending.

We are rural though and I suspect country bumpkins are a bit more grounded in reality given half the folk work the land / with animals.

It you who has misunderstood the law. If an organisation is single sex it can only admit members of the specified sex and sex means biological sex

Thanks for that and I am sure that many Scout groups are not as bad & that includes yours - that is to the credit of the individuals running those groups.

You will understand though that our experience was just so bad that it has coloured my opinion of the Scouts as a whole. Their insistence on trans inclusivity is a joke in the context of the disdain for the disabled which I experience. IMO the ridiculous fuss made about trans rights and their demands for inclusivity on their terms, is obscuring the genuine need for further inclusivity for other groups which has not gone away.

It is the same mentality as that of people who help themselves to dedicated disabled facilities, toilets, wheelchair spaces etc. 'I just fancy some extra inclusivity today, and it is all about my feelings and convenience'.

3/4 year olds have no idea about gender and sex, let alone being transgender! Incredibly worrying influence of the mother at such a young age

I'd just apologise and say guidance is female only because of safeguarding risks for things like camps and sleepovers, but that beavers and similar cater to mixed sex and do similar activities (assuming your group is rainbows anyway)

Given we are now 3 weeks till the summer holidays (in England - and in some Nations they will have started) you can at least put this off till after the summer holiday.
The DC will probably have to either back up the parent or push it up the chain if you outright refuse, I'm afraid.
GG do not seem to care that they are losing volunteers hand over fist. This is the hill they appear to actually be currently dying on.

Unfortunately guidance is NOT single sex only.

I'm confused.

If he is a male child with a boys name, then surely he isnt transgender but just a normal boy. You can say no to him as GG is girls only.

If he is an actual girl but presents as a boy then "he" can join as really he is female.