Transgender 4 year old wanting to join girls only group

[Helpwithdivorce]

So I’ll preface this by saying im very much a live your life however you please as long as you’re not hurting anybody kind of person. However I run a group, which is just for girls aged 4-7.

I’ve had a request from a parent for their child to join. The child is 4 and the parent said they are transgender. Now here is my predicament, which may be rightly or wrongly.

Firstly I feel like this mother is just out to cause drama, there are other very similar mixed gender groups, there is no reason this child needs to join a group only for girls.

Secondly I simply do not believe that a 3/4 year old child knows that they are transgender. I feel this is being peddled by the mother, again feeding the drama.

What would you do? I really don’t want this mother in my group, but the group is ‘inclusive’ so I can’t say no you can’t join.
Currently I’ve just ignored the request.

This is a good point.

we’re all assuming it’s a male child identifying as female.

it could well be a female child now identifying as male which is why the name “Thomas” is male and the note about transgender.

in that case I’d be allowing the female child to join. At least it may help them realise they’re female and sex doesn’t affect what activities they do.

one thought - could Thomas be their (new) male name and they were born female? In which case they would have to be included on the waiting list to comply with the law.

I really feel for the volunteers in this position. Ultimately it’s for the overall organisation to set a policy, bear in mind that if they exclude trans boys then they will be discriminating against biological women.

But Girl Guiding isn’t single sex any longer, it’s gender inclusive, including staff, which has been hugely controversial. The activist Maya Forstater had to resign from Guiding for that reason.

Technically-and according to the organization-they are still girls only. It’s the definition of girl that has changed, not the movement.

I’ve done a lot of volunteering with the beavers/cubs. Anecdotally (& appreciate based on limited sample size) the boys interrupt more than the girls generally and interrupt the female leader more than the male ones. They don’t really volunteer more answers or expect to go first more. All boy and mixed groups generally do less well doing any kind of task requiring cooperation &/or planning than all girl groups. I suspect this is mainly as the girls are generally better at listening to instructions and focusing on the task. I’m sure though if you asked a leader with a different group they’d see other patterns so it would be interesting to see some research.

I can imagine the conversation

Sorry, Thomas is not eligible because this group is for girls aged 4-6
But Thomas is transgender
The law relates to sex not gender
Well Thomas's sex is female
If Thomas is female she can join, I'll put her on the waiting list
Him
?
He's a boy
In that case he's not eligible because this is a group for girls aged 4-6

Yes surely this is abuse.

At 14 fair enough someone can have these feelings, and there’s a gulf between 4 and 14. I have no idea where the line is there. Probably gets incredibly blurry.

But at 4! No that’s 100% emotional abuse.

How is single sex provision, that allow girls to be centred as opposed to mixed sex where very often boys dominate, unfair to boys?

It’s scary. That poor child having such an idiot for a mother.

And she got an apology: https://hiyamaya.net/2021/12/19/the-scout-association-has-apologised-now-can-they-face-up-to-their-problem/

So get in touch with the leaders and ask them?

If their charitable status is based on it being a single sex service, they would need to formally change that before making it mixed sex.

But she wouldn’t be permitted to allow a non trans identifying male child to join. So mixed sex and discriminatory all at the same time.

OP, no time to read the full thread and I hope someone has made this point hours ago, but the Supreme Court ruling is quite clear.

If you advertise a group as female only/ girls only/ women only then you can only admit biological females, ie girls. Little boys whose mums have decided they are transgender are still boys and will always be male. You cannot offer a female-only space and then allow a male person to join. If you do that you are a mixed sex group and I imagine you'll lose a fair few participants whose mums wanted a single-sex girls group.

You can perfectly legally say to the parent 'This is a single sex group for girls, biological females. Your child is a biological boy and legally I can't admit him to the group. Here's the Supreme Court ruling that explains it all. The solution is for him to go to this mixed sex group or this boy's only group: offer contact details.' If she blethers and threatens, record what she's saying and hold firm: the law is on your side.

I think there's a fair bit of evidence accruing that parents of small 'transgender' children are trans activists and a lot of trans activists seem to be permanently looking for a fight and attention, so be prepared, put things in writing or record conversations on your phone. But don't admit him!

supremecourt.uk/uploads/uksc_2024_0042_judgment_aea6c48cee.pdf

Good luck.

There is a good word and it is NO we dont do that here.

‘In line with our values of inclusion and changing as the lives of girls change, it’s important that we welcome trans girls and women.’

https://www.girlguiding.org.uk/information-for-volunteers/running-your-unit/including-all/lgbt-members/supporting-trans-members/

It's not difficult.

There needs to be an objective justification for a group/space to be single sex.

As boys often take over and are generally socially conditioned to be more boisterous than girls it would be a legitimate aim to have a group where girls can flourish without the sex that takes over there.

If you are single sex then you would be changing your group to mixed sex by allowing one boy (trans girls) in and more importantly if you rejected other boys due to them being male then they could have a discrimination claim against you if you let one boy (trans girl) in.

This would be my answer to the mum.

added to the waiting list

it would be so unfortunate if that paper folder got misplaced or if there was a computer glitch.

Ive been the victim of lost papers and glitches many times when the person on other end doesn’t want to bother investigating complaints etc…. Really kind emails with … yes, you will need to resubmit application and rejoin the list - many are disappointed about this unavoidable issue.

I really wouldn't add to the wait list.

As I said in my post other boys could claim that you were being discriminatory if you don't also add them to the wait list.

Single sex groups are biological and supported in law.

According to the law they are now mixed sex.

Last place we lived 7 years - all those years one or both my DD were on the raibow then brownies list.

When we rang to check we were always on the list - always a reason why other girls got to top mine never did - mostly not knowing the right people in the area.

No reason for it - my girls were well behaved and I'm not a diffcult person- it was just we weren't born in local area like most others.

So if you ignore the request then if pushed do the above - mostly likely nothing will happen.

Us volunteers can do without this bs!
If you haven’t already then contact GG HQ to establish their up to date stance; if they come back with TWAW then point out that all boys must then be accepted as per the SC judgement.
I’m waiting for a reply from a women’s organisation I belong to and they are awaiting the ECHR judgement!
It smacks of sitting on the fence 😡 and not treating their biological sex females fairly.

I'm guessing the mother is one of those types. Probably plasters her social media with outrage at /Ukraine Israel/Gaza/JK Rowling etc without understanding any of it.

The sort that likes to be in the limelight.

I was so excited, having myself had great teen adventures, when DD joined ventures.

Ventures is mixed sex and has been for years, it's a low key, fun way for teens to mix outside of school.
Unfortunately a homeschooled biological male joined identifying as a girl. As parents we weren't told about this. On a fantastic trip, the child insisted on using, then fouling the girls toilets. Just disgusting, that the girls were responsible for cleaning and did a lot of heavy, uncomfortable staring. Teen years are tough enough without that.
Those poor leaders, my poor daughter and that poor fucked up teenager without proper social skills, a ton of mental health problems and on track for failure.
I met the parents at pick up, and consequently heard lots on the grape vane, yes it did start at play group. Some people shouldn't be allowed to parent.

DD and lots of the nicer kids stopped going and the leaders lost heart, how sad for everyone.

Then they also need to include boys and men.

For anyone who does not understand the current law - you can legally discriminate against males and exclude them from a female only group under the single sex exemption provision.

BUT if you admit males who claim a female 'identity' you cannot legally exclude males under the single sex exemption because it is no longer a single sex group.

So they are either a single sex group, or a mixed sex group. There is no provision to allow some males whilst excluding others. That would be sex discrimination.

Throughout all this, the law relates to biological sex and 'gender identity' is irrelevant.

I hope that makes it clear for those who are not familiar with the law.