Thread 26 Starmer: Cats, Rebels and Orange Chaos

[DuncinToffee]

Previous thread https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5349605-thread-25-starmer-cheers-for-a-falling-out-among-thieves?page=40&reply=145224605

All human rights are subject to derogation. If you meet anyone who can't (or doesn't) grasp that then it won't be a discussion you are having.

Speaking for myself, I don't need to be protected from a benefits fraudster in the same way I need to be protected from someone who has used violence.

A locked but removable ankle bracelet isn't quite the same as having an implant under the skin, though.

So ankle tags are insecure ?

What are we using them then ? How many people have been hurt by people discarding their tags ?

And is the implication here that as soon as a tag goes out of bounds the miscreant will be back in custody within an hour ?

I mean they can be removed when they are finished with. No breaking of the skin involved.

And yes, they are generally used to enforce conditions and curfews, the breaking of which may lead to recall. I'm not seeing how the implants are a vast improvement on that, unless the technology is significantly more sensitive and reliable.

I'd have thought, assuming the procedure is safe, its far better? i wouldn't want a bloody tag around my ankle. telling the whole world i'm criminal....

But Serendipity is right, far too much private involvement in the public sector and a justice system thats not working by any measure.

We just haven't the money available for what we want.

Your point about who we need protecting from is a good one. We imprison far too many people - prisons should be for those who threaten the safety of communities.
My dad used to teach in what was then called a Borstal in the 70s. He asked the governor of Stafford nick (pretty high security then I think) what he would do if he had a call saying 90% of his inmates had escaped. The gov said ‘ask which 90%’. Even in the 70s we were imprisoning more people than we should and it’s got worse. Tough on crime doesn’t have to mean prison for all and sundry.

i wouldn't want a bloody tag around my ankle. telling the whole world i'm criminal....

Funny how the cornerstone of English punishment - public humiliation - has been erased from our lives. Presumably His Majesties Press now handle that ?

It's not an age thing ... I've always felt that a spell in the stocks (or whatever we can devise for this millennium) would probably act as a far greater deterrent than the badge of honour doing time seems to be.

However, generally the higher you go in any government, the less imagination you will ever see. Hence the tiresome hit-it-with-a-hammer approach to almost everything. Supported by that ghastly whine of "we've always done it this way".

Lowe's new party has a solution, the death penalty

Susan Hall, the 2024 Tory candidate for London mayor, has joined Rupert Lowe's movement, which promises:
• Deport 2m people
• Push for foreign nationals who speak poor English or "fail to integrate" to "go home"
• "Restore Christian principles
• "Carpet-bomb the cancer of wokery"
• Death penalty

https://bsky.app/profile/peterwalker99.bsky.social/post/3lsw2sda26k27

Quite pally with fare dodger warrior honest Bob.

Well that would be Ds2s partners parents deported. Despite having run a very successful takeaway here for 30 years they still don't have functional English outside that needed for the business and rely on their daughter to translate for medical appointments etc, use Chinese accountants etc. Her dad is a bloody good cook and I love his lobster noodles.

• Push for foreign nationals who speak poor English or "fail to integrate" to "go home"

I struggle understand a word Rupert Lowe says. Can we send him back to the Rhine ?

Perhaps some research if it does not already exist should be done about the profile of those who have short sentences.

There are plenty of non-custodial punishments that have never been considered. We live in a world where a large proportion of people have holidays abroad, where their mobile phone number is more important than their address for most communication, where outside large cities if they have a driving licence they would do almost anything to avoid a ban, for example.

Research is only useful if you based policy on evidence.

And as we know, the problem with evidence based policy is that is tends not to align with the mores of the day (or maybe any day).

The government's welfare legislation is falling apart in real time. Now the four-point rule is being axed from the legislation. The one remaining big cut in the Bill is the slashing of Universal Credit health payments by 40% for new claimants

https://bsky.app/profile/cjayanetti.bsky.social/post/3lsw5tphnjk2l

Seems what Labour were saying to themselves 2020-2024 as the UK slipped into more and more chaos was

"Where's our turn ?"

It's almost as if they had a policy of act first, think later. I get that they wanted to make a difference and be seen to pull the country out of a mess but they way they have gone about it is almost farcical.

Is it? You cannot remove the tag, and your freedom is restricted in the same way, ie, you are tracked. Strictly, tagged offenders are subject to law at all times if not in prison but on community sentence or on licence.

The issue is that the MOJ’s tag system is not very good. These systems are likely to be far better.

This is a justice secretary who says she may sterilize paedophiles. That is also invasive of the body, but could be justified.

It's almost as if they had a policy of act first, think later.

No. This is the policy of pure and utter pigheadedness.

You cannot remove the tag,

Allegedly.

This is a justice secretary who says she may sterilize paedophiles.

Why, pray tell ?

More fool them for pushing on with a poorly designed bill. Frankly they should pull it - even now - and start again with practical positive employment support at the forefront (if that’s what their aim ever was).

There are these powers already. Driving licenses are not taken away for community offenders because of prospective loss of employment, passports not removed because it doesn’t relate to the crime committed ie not a football hooligan. The judiciary will not apply them to offenders.

Chipping someone like a cat is very similar to tagging. It means you can check their movements and enforce curfews related to the crime. This will be “prison in the community”.

I imagine the issue will be business, who may want to protect their interests from criminals, so refuse entry. How many shoplifters could be identified and refused entry to shops if this was implemented?

She claims it might reduce reoffending. I have my doubts on that

Implants can be removed too, I have seen it in films.

I imagine the issue will be business, who may want to protect their interests from criminals, so refuse entry. How many shoplifters could be identified and refused entry to shops if this was implemented?

Obviously these tags will need radio waves to work on. So the lucky wearers will be additionally subject to a raft of clothes they can't wear.

But why ? What research has gone into that claim ?

Smacks too much of medieval revenge and not enough of science to me.

Maybe we need to read their bumps too ?