DD17 has been inappropriately touched by a customer whilst at work.

[Normansglasseye]

DD17 works at the weekend at a well known store.

We are currently on our way to pick her up as she's just rung me very distressed. She was serving on a till and an autistic young man around the same as DD has grabbed one of her breasts. She is absolutely distraught. The carer/parent has apologised.

I've never been in a situation like this.

I'm so upset for DD.

I would imagine the poster meant 'severely autistic' or 'severely affected by his autism' if you want to split hairs. Other terms you might come across include 'low functioning autist'. I suspect you know this...

Of course, all these usages are controversial and contested, often by far more articulate autists than my own son could ever hope to be. They will say, autism is autism (it isn't, IMO). They will say, no such thing as 'high functioning', we are ALL impacted significantly and equally by our autism. I would contest that. I would suggest that there is a massive difference in life experience between someone who is 'severely autistic', and someone who has a diagnosis of what used to be called Aspergers or 'high functioning autism', a person who, despite having undeniable challenges and difficulties in the areas of social communication and interaction, or sensory issues, might nonetheless be married or partnered, have a great job, drive, live alone and unaided. I am not downplaying their autism. But surely they, and you, can see there's a massive difference between that life experience, and someone like my son, who is cognitively gauged to be at the 3-4 year range (he's mid-teens) has virtually no impulse control, absolutely no sense of danger to himself or others, and cannot simply be 'taught' not to do things he shouldn't.

This is sensible. Sadly, many more sexual assaults are carried out by neurotypical men who know exactly what they're about. We all need to be vigilant and capable of defending ourselves. And I say this as an ardent feminist who decries the epidemic of violence and sexual assaults against girls and women. I don't want to normalise it by suggesting she try and help herself by going to self defence classes - because assaults shouldn't happen at all. But an intellectually disabled boy grabbing at her breasts is NOT part of the epidemic of sexual assault. If people can't see the difference then I despair.

Then you will get people saying it's the learning disabilities not the autism that's the issue, but how do you even say where autism ends and learning disabilities begin ,there are calls in America, for a separate diagnosis of Profound autism.

OP said he had a carer, possibly the mum with him.

GlomOfNit

My heart goes out to you and all parents with autistic and disabled dc. I am not condoning some of the replies on my thread at all, as you say it's fairly obvious from this thread there is still a long, long way to go before people fully recognise just how difficult it is caring for someone with disabilities . As I have mentioned previously, I work in the care industry and we also have two very autistic nieces, I fully understand the mental and physical challenges it takes to care for a loved one with these conditions.

Obviously, I am upset that dd is upset. She has no experience of autism and atm she is simply seeing this young man as being the same as any of the other men who have given her unwanted attention. We are talking about this all the time, I am trying to get her to understand autism and the severity of the condition in some people. She does not want to go to the police.

However, I won't lie, I am a little upset that the parent (from what dd says I now get the impression the young man was her son) hasn't contacted the store to at lease check in on dd but I also fully understand she is also protecting her young adult son, as you say, he is no longer a child and the adult world with severely autistic people is a completely different world from when they are children. I have seen families break down to dust trying to navigate the world with an autistic adult child.

I am also thoroughly pissed off that dd's manager hasn't bothered to check dd is ok but that's a whole other issue.

I wish you all the best.

I hope everyone taking part in this thread, including the detractors baying for blood, take time to read this post.

I have no words to add because everything anyone needs to know about how we, as a society, are letting down the most vulnerable and their families, is very eloquently expressed here. Sadly it mirrors so many of the cases l was involved in as a disability outreach worker and it’s hugely concerning to know, as you read on, that the experience for so many families across the country will be similar.

@GlomOfNit thank you for what must have been a very difficult post to write, given that it’s so personal and yet so relevant to those in similar circumstances. It illustrates perfectly the responsibility placed on unpaid carers who are expected to cope with minimal support, who save the tax payer an absolute fortune and yet, as we’ve seen here, often find themselves in the firing line when things go wrong.

I hope I would contact the store to see how your daughter was
But i can also see that if it was my son who grabbed and beleive me we try very hard to prevent this ,I would want to get him away, to descalate the situation as quickly as possible
The management of store sound terrible .regardless of the man's disabilities, it's still a horrible thing to have happened to your daughter.

I am going to ask MN to possibly remove this thread. I don't want to offend anyone, that certainly was not my intention.

I was understandably upset when I posted this on Sunday. DD had sent me a text to say she had been groped whilst at work and I went into protective parent mode.

A few days in and on reflection, I see this thread has caused a lot of upset for those caring for ASD children and I don't wish for that at all.

I am upset for my dd, she is still very upset and angry and we will work on that.

It is a difficult situation all round and obviously we can't have people moving into stranger's personal spaces and definitely not touching them in inappropriate places. I don't know what the answer is tbh, I appreciate autistic people and those with mental health issues (I have ADHD) are unpredictable at times.

DD wants to continue working as it allows her to own a little money whilst she studies at college and at her age it's hard to find work especially one which does not involve direct contact with the general public. But she and all the others do deserve to be able to work without the fear of being touched by anyone. It's a tricky issue but hopefully a rare one (the assistant manager says in all her years working in retail she has never experienced this).

Personally I'd ask to leave this this thread standing as it reminds us of the sorts of people out there.

Pulling it means they can disappear into the shadows again, and pretend they've never been called out before.

Whatever you decide, best wishes for your DD and family.

I think you’re in a very difficult position OP. Trying to navigate this with your DD will be a minefield, but from your posts l think you’ve a measure of compassion and understanding from your professional capacity that will help enormously. I do think that it’s important your DD understands that what happened was mostly as a result of inadequate supervision of a disabled boy, but l think that will take time.

The element of disability is a fact but it doesn’t make it any the less true that she was assaulted and she needs to process her anger and hurt at that, and then hopefully she can begin to understand the wider factors involved.

I’m so sorry this happened at all, and while l think it would have been good for the carer to get in contact, l think you’re right in that they are probably focused on protecting their son from the possible consequences - and very possibly quite shaken up as the seriousness of the incident dawns on them.

I can only hope that they can navigate the dire state of social care and try to access the resources available to reduce the risk of this happening again, and that you and your DD have access to whatever resources you both need to work through, and move on from this.

Oof. Well of course this is a MASSIVE area and one that's very contentious, right? Sounds like you're also well informed about it. Well, autism is very often co-morbid with LDs, and they interplay. My son's impulse control is probably due to his autism but he can't understand why it's so dangerous or inappropriate because of his LDs. His obsessive interests with something is borne of his autism but his LDs mean he's unlikely to become obsessive about Tolstoy or higher mathematics. His grabbing at my breasts is a fixed behaviour that we try to stop - his LDs mean he finds it almost impossible to understand why it's inappropriate, his autistic obsessive behaviours mean he keeps coming.

I think it's maybe a bit of a red herring in this specific context though. I have stopped saying 'oh sorry my child is laughing inordinately at your dog and trying to touch its feet/is trying to reach for the open lid of your washing up liquid bottle to close it/trying to close the lid of your open box/etc - he's autistic' , and started saying 'he has learning disabilities' - because I think, increasingly, the term 'autistic' means less and less to people who have no deeper understanding or experience of autism. We know that it's a massively diverse spectrum and that autists can have very 'pointy' profiles in terms of social communication/sensory issues/behaviour/abilities. etc. But to many people, I get the impression autism means 'someone who's quirky and good at STEM' or 'someone who's obsessed with one thing and talks incessantly about it ' or 'someone who comes across as socially awkward'. I think this is in part due to the huge uptick in people seeking diagnosis and identity for themselves, in order to make sense of the way they are. That is fine - but those people are a lot more articulate and also visible, and often very proactive in telling people about their autism. In the longer run, I don't think this helps the situation with people who are very severely affected by their autism and will always need supervision and help. But there we are.

So I've stopped explaining to people that my son is autistic - I tend to say LDs primarily. I think very few people on the outside of all of this understand that LDs are very often paired with autism, because they think of bloody Sheldon on tv or something.

Indeed only yesterday my neighbour was telling me all autistic people are very clever i just said no not all it s a massive spectrum, tbf he was trying to be kind he knows my son is disabled i don't find it offensive but o fo wish there was more education about it

Agree. It surprises and saddens me that some of the attitudes expressed on this thread still exist. Autism, and indeed disability in general, is much more in the public consciousness these days and there are lots of resources for learning. But it’s my experience that most people won’t engage without a reason, so unless they are personally affected at some point they won’t bother. But, as evidenced by this thread, that won’t stop some from expressing their uneducated and sometimes disgustingly ableist opinions whenever the opportunity presents itself.

There is a whole disabled community out there, struggling to find it’s place in a society that places little importance on meeting their needs and wholeheartedly throws it’s support behind each round of vicious cuts to welfare and social care without a thought as to the consequences for the people involved or for society as a whole.

It surprises and saddens me that some of the attitudes expressed on this thread still exist.

One reason for letting it stand.

l’d advise leaving it up OP. I don’t think you’ve offended anyone - your initial gut reaction and instincts as a mother are entirely understandable and through the rest of your posts you’ve displayed a level of compassion and understanding for the likely circumstances of the boy and his carer, that many would find nigh on impossible in the circumstances.

The discussion has been interesting and enlightening and has thrown up many relevant issues which hopefully will be food for thought for those taking part, and it’s hopefully provided some help and support for you and your DD in finding a way forward from a very difficult incident.

I don't think some people like to be inconvenienced in anyway by disabilities
I'm not talking about the Op ,as she's been quite balanced,and is understandably concerned about her daughter
You often see it on school threads about kids with disabilities and challenging behaviour, posters don't want those children in the same classroom as their children
But by the same token if it's a sweet little child with learning disabilities who is very compliant i have seen posters saying things such as its great to have that child in the classroom as it teaches ,their own kids about inclusion .

…someone who has a diagnosis of what used to be called Aspergers or 'high functioning autism', a person who, despite having undeniable challenges and difficulties in the areas of social communication and interaction, or sensory issues, might nonetheless be married or partnered, have a great job, drive, live alone and unaided. I am not downplaying their autism

@GlomOfNit This is an aside from the point of the thread, but the operative word above is ‘might’. Some people with what used to be called Aspergers, though cognitively able, are affected to such as extent that they will most likely never live independently and need lifelong care, often due to severe MH issues.

I think people sometimes tend to forget that.

I agree with everything else you say and absolutely agree there is a big difference between someone who is profoundly and cognitively affected and someone who is not. But autism and it’s associated conditions can be severe enough for someone to require full time care even without an intellectual disability and I think that’s something people need to know too.

I don't think some people like to be inconvenienced in anyway by disabilities

It's an education hearing someone spitting bile at the TV because there is a signer in the corner. And I have seen someone make a thing about avoiding a ramp intended for inclusiveness to use the stairs at the side.

Yes and I know people like that too ,academically able ,but unable to care for themselves
In some ways I'm grateful than my sons needs a very obvious it is very clear he will never be independent.

Just a final thought on social care here. There are cuts to disability benefits planned for next year - specifically PIP - which it’s been estimated will affect over a million claimants. Some will have daily living support reduced and many will lose it altogether. For those who lose the daily living element, any unpaid carers looking after them will also lose carers allowance.

For many carers this will mean that they can no longer provide care as they will now have to work or increase their hours. So the responsibility for providing care to those left without, will fall to the social care system, and as a result the demand on an already broken system will increase massively.

The press and the media are focused on the savings these cuts will make within the benefits system, and l’ve yet to see one word about the huge extra cost that will be placed on social care as a result. It’s robbing Peter to pay Paul - the cost of paying disability and carers allowances are significantly less than providing professional paid care, and many who managed with family carers will now be dragged into the social care system needlessly and at vastly increased cost to the tax payer. Many more will be left without adequate care as the system is stretched.

The OP’s experience is an example of what can and does happen as a result of inadequate care for vulnerable people and the proposed cuts will inevitably mean an increase in such incidents, with more and more vulnerable people being inappropriately placed in the criminal justice system as a result.This is grossly unfair to disabled people and their carers, as well as potential innocent victims like OP’s DD.

Can l therefore suggest that it’s in all our interests to contact our local MPs before these cuts are implemented, point out the strain that will be placed on already inadequate resources, and ask what extra provision has been made for the increase in the need for social care as a result of these cuts, and for clarification as to how the cost of that provision balances against the actual monetary value of the cuts.

Working with the general public shouldn't mean that being assaulted/abused/treated badly is inevitable.

People working with the public in this kind of role aren't deserving of being assaulted simply because they work with the general public.

We should be working towards it not happening, not telling people that they should accept it because they work with the general public and that's just how it is,sometimes because people don't have capacity and sometimes because they just can and know this kind of attitude is out there to defend their actions and make the victim the one who's in the wrong because they chose to do that job and shouldn't expect anything else.

OPs daughter, the young man, the carer or indeed anyone who ends up in a situation like this are not acceptable collateral damage of a society and political agenda that seems to think that if you remove the support, the need for that support disappears, it doesn't. It results in preventable situations like this happening to which people have the attitude 'You work with the public, you can't expect anything else'.

The young man should be able to visit the shops, the carer should have the support/training to enable that to happen while not endangering other people and OPs daughter, or anyone else, should not be expected to accept being assaulted is inevitable, because of a lack of that support or training, which actually is lack of money, or the will to recognise it's needed and provide it.

the cost of paying disability and carers allowances are significantly less than providing professional paid care, a

Er - they whole point is to avoid paying anything. After all if they are already begrudging the pittance that less able already receive, then what makes you think they will spend any more on professional care.

No. They will spend nothing, the less able will go back to being locked indoors and society will say "look how inclusive we are".

All these benefit changes are for the benefit of the rich, not the deserving,.

I beg your pardon for thinking and saying that the freedom of association of the learning disabled with a propensity for violence should not come at the cost of them infringing assault on children in classrooms, or female retail workers etc, going about their work business.
I also think that every man that ups and leaves their disabled child behind should be made to pay double the child maintenance.

@EasyTouch
Not sure what you’re saying exactly

This doesn't make any sense?