Child unable to see that actually, it is fair. What could this be?

[PutTheCakeDOWN]

Rubbish title sorry, but couldn’t think how to explain it in one line.

I have a wonderful DD8 who I love very much. She is funny and caring, but as she gets older we are increasingly noticing that she struggles with lots of things. She is very behind at school academically and maturity-wise, and is about to be kept down a year in consequence.
I am pretty sure she is dyslexic and dyspraxic, and I am paying for assessments but it will still be 6 weeks wait.

The main thing I’m struggling with at the moment is that she is the world’s worst (or best!) sulker. Always has been. She has a very keen sense of injustice, and always feels she is being wronged. She will then sulk for literally hours, no matter where she is or who she is with.

We have tried everything over the years. Ignoring, punishing, explaining. Nothing gets through to her and nothing has ever worked. The older children don’t sulk and I have never EVER given into a sulk.

Triggers can be situations such as ‘DD please can you take out the bin, it is your turn?’
DD - it is not my turn!!
Calmly explain how it is her turn with reference to calendar.
DD cannot see that it is her turn, continues to refuse and sulk.

Triggers also include ANYTHING that amounts to slight criticism. Eg…
Me - come on DD, time to turn Bluey off now please
DD - just one more!
DS13 - she’s already watched like 5, she watches too much TV
DD will then go ballistic shouting I DO NOT, DON’T BE MEAN TO ME and probably throw the remote at him. Consequences will then follow, but she will not understand why she was in the wrong because ‘everyone is being so mean to me.’

I am finding it really wearing. And worrying - she is at the age where she’s getting asked out on sleepovers etc, and I’m so worried she’ll lose all her friends if she behaves like that.

I have always thought she is just headstrong (because she is!) and stubborn, but now I’m wondering if she can actually help it. And if she can’t, what do I do? And can’t go through life like this, but I can’t seem to stop it!

I would really appreciate some outside views on this please.

Fellow 8yo mum here. Some of that seems entirely normal. Especially the fairness thing. Mine really struggles to lose anything and declares the whole world is against him.

We mostly go for the ignore. No point talking about it when they're wound up. Then when he's calmed down, try and talk about his feelings. We've also deliberately voiced our feelings towards DH and I at home. Eg when it's my turn to clean up after dinner "I don't really want to clean up, but I understand it's my turn and we all have to take turns as a family" or if I lose a game "I'm a bit sad on the inside about losing but I'm not going to make a big deal of it because next time I might be the winner".

I don't have any answers I'm afraid, Just solidarity in that my 6 year old son is very similar. We highly suspect he has ADHD and maybe autism too. There's a type of autism I think PDA?

Basically they don't like being told what to do. I've done zero research into it though so hopefully someone with more knowledge will be along shortly.

“Uh oh DD’s in one of her mooooods. Give her space”

don’t indulge. No fanfare. Speak breezily and as though you don’t even notice

I have no answers really but just wanted to say do a lot of her outbursts happen after DS has got involved? In your example I would be saying to DS "I am the parent not you thank you DS, now DD turn the TV off and eat dinner you can watch more Bluey at (insert time)". It is very frustrating for younger children to have older children interfering in their interactions with the parent and can lead to feelings of unfairness obviously there is more going on here than just this but it did stand out to me in your example.

My youngest is a fair bit older than your DD. He also has a very strong sense of justice. A major postive of this is that he will stand up for other people when he feels they have been wronged. This makes me very proud of him.

I think my DC would be very wound up by a sibling chipping in. In our house the 13 year old would have been told to mind his own business.

Your DD sounds as though she has many qualities that will stand her in good stead one day. She knows what is right. She will not be walked all over.

This is a child who gets in very sulky and prolonged moods

I don’t think you can spin that in to a strong sense of justice

Yes, that struck me too. Talk to your older child about not intervening, OP.

always feels she is being wronged.

But clearly she won’t be

My DD is 20 has some SEN.

She still reacts so much better to warnings, she really struggles with immediate transitions.

So if the cases are as you describe, I would try,
. reminding earlier about the bins, so it can sink in, then a warning 5-10mins before, and try for it to be at a transition anyway. So before tea say 'DD don't forget it will be your turn to do the bins after the meal' then towards the end of the meal 'DD when you get down from the table do the bins before TV' then as she gets down 'don't forget the bins'.
. TV - I always give notice, at least 5-10 minutes, or 'at the end of this programme'

I agree though, DS13 needs to butt out.

Absolutely. My 13 year old does the same and it drives me bonkers.

Give more of a lead in. In 3 minutes you will….

If need be, use a timer so that she can see the 3 minutes.

Some DC’s don’t like change and need time to adapt before it happens.

My 10yo in both those situations will immediately remember a case where her siblings did not take out the bin on her day (never mind it was because her leg was broken) or watched 6 episodes of something in a row - even if this occasion was 18 months ago, she will use it as required!

I wonder about PDA because her default is always to say no and argue before she's even processed what you've said. We are working on taking a breath, thinking about it and then responding.

@Mystupiddistractedbrain

She knows what is right. She will not be walked all over.

No, she’s misreading what is right. This is not going to stand her in good stead.

Have a look into autism.

How about rejection sensitive dysphoria? Commonly comorbid with ADHD and autism. Great articles about it on the Additude website.

she knows what is right

@Mystupiddistractedbrain she is 8.
the fact she thinks something is “right” ie I should be allowed to have an ice cream 2 mins before mum is serving dinner, doesn’t mean she is right

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24878677/

Do you think she could be autistic with a PSA profile?

PDA is pathological demand avoidance - people with this profile have an automatic sense of refusal/outrage when faced with any demands. Demands in this sense doesn’t mean that you’re rudely demanding something, just that you’re telling her she has to do (or not do) something.

I have a cousin who is 10 now and this is his diagnosis, his parents are working out lots of strategies for how to ask him to do something without triggering a tantrum or sulk.

Might be worth reading up on and just seeing if anything sounds familiar.

Have a look at some info about PDA and strategies for dealing with it and try this approach to see if it makes a difference? Whether she responds better to that or not might help to see what’s going on with her.

Reading your OP I wondered about autism and pathological demand avoidance (PDA). PDA has its roots in extreme anxiety but often looks like unreasonable rigidity and inconvenient behaviour. Definitely bring it up at the assessment for dyslexia/dyspraxia.

I also wonder if framing your dd's response to these incidents as "sulking" is helpful or unhelpful. What words would your dd use to describe how she's feeling at these times?

Is it an automatic reaction due to being ‘trained’ to do this by her sibling commenting? Children can get into habits of just snapping back something automatically, rather than thinking and taking on board what’s being said.

I think this denial is quite normal. I’ve had children deny things when I’ve seen them do it right in front of me (“No, I didn’t!”) Once they’re in that frame of mind, there’s no point in getting into a discussion with them. Be matter of fact, as though you’re gently stating, the obvious. Ignore sulking and don’t react. Carry on as normal. Never let things turn into loud arguing or shouting, as this will just entrench the behaviour.

Keep all responses calm and brief (Yes, it is your turn to take the bin out - it’s on the calendar), stand your ground and ignore all huffing, puffing, and moaning. If they sulk afterwards, carry on and ignore them. If they’re being very unpleasant, send them to their room for a brief time to calm down.

‘What could it be? @PutTheCakeDOWN

Her personality, her immaturity.

Every trait is not SEN.

I have a keen sense of justice and fairness. I no longer sulk as I have matured ( well sometimes…😊), but I will point out policies and rules, even if it means I actually lose out.

Much prefer fair than not even to my detriment.

Re DS - I ALWAYS tell them off instantly for interfering, didn’t mention that sorry.

I do appreciate the general behaviour tips, but it’s really beyond that now. You can’t ignore the sulking however hard you try. It lasts hours and affects everything and everyone. It (the sulking) is noisy and attention seeking.
Punishing the sulking doesn’t work. Asking her to sit in another room doesn’t work.
She SEETHES with the perceived injustice and you just cannot reach her. I have never met another child like it.

Im just so worried for her.

She is very keen on animals and EXTREMELY protective over her pets. Eg if her dog comes in muddy and someone says ‘goodness look at the state of Rover, don’t let him past the kitchen until he’s dried. He’s filthy!’ she will just lose the plot over them being ‘so mean’ to Rover and scream ‘SHUT UP! Leave him ALONE!’

This type of behaviour is always corrected and the reason it needed corrected explained, but it never makes any difference.

Every trait is not SEN.

Something I believe extremely strongly, and have disagreed when people have suggested SEN with her in the past. She just needs to learn to behave, was my view.

However here she is on the SEN register and getting worse every week, so it’s time to consider if this is something she can’t help and needs specialist support with, in my view.

What does her school say
she must encounter perceived injustices there day in and day out!