Child unable to see that actually, it is fair. What could this be?

[PutTheCakeDOWN]

Rubbish title sorry, but couldn’t think how to explain it in one line.

I have a wonderful DD8 who I love very much. She is funny and caring, but as she gets older we are increasingly noticing that she struggles with lots of things. She is very behind at school academically and maturity-wise, and is about to be kept down a year in consequence.
I am pretty sure she is dyslexic and dyspraxic, and I am paying for assessments but it will still be 6 weeks wait.

The main thing I’m struggling with at the moment is that she is the world’s worst (or best!) sulker. Always has been. She has a very keen sense of injustice, and always feels she is being wronged. She will then sulk for literally hours, no matter where she is or who she is with.

We have tried everything over the years. Ignoring, punishing, explaining. Nothing gets through to her and nothing has ever worked. The older children don’t sulk and I have never EVER given into a sulk.

Triggers can be situations such as ‘DD please can you take out the bin, it is your turn?’
DD - it is not my turn!!
Calmly explain how it is her turn with reference to calendar.
DD cannot see that it is her turn, continues to refuse and sulk.

Triggers also include ANYTHING that amounts to slight criticism. Eg…
Me - come on DD, time to turn Bluey off now please
DD - just one more!
DS13 - she’s already watched like 5, she watches too much TV
DD will then go ballistic shouting I DO NOT, DON’T BE MEAN TO ME and probably throw the remote at him. Consequences will then follow, but she will not understand why she was in the wrong because ‘everyone is being so mean to me.’

I am finding it really wearing. And worrying - she is at the age where she’s getting asked out on sleepovers etc, and I’m so worried she’ll lose all her friends if she behaves like that.

I have always thought she is just headstrong (because she is!) and stubborn, but now I’m wondering if she can actually help it. And if she can’t, what do I do? And can’t go through life like this, but I can’t seem to stop it!

I would really appreciate some outside views on this please.

Just a thought - could it be she's just looking for an argument and this:

This type of behaviour is always corrected and the reason it needed corrected explained.

Is actually feeding into it? The correcting amd discussion IS the reaction that's feeding it. She knows, maybe stop with the explaining? (this sounds like I'm being arsey but I'm not meaning to, sorry!).

She just sounds spoilt.

Just coming on to add (because I'm nodding to all the PDA/rejection sensitivity thoughts) to remember that you are her safe space. School she'll be bottling it in (hence the quiet comments) and at home she'll be unleashing some of the masking. It doesn't help deal with it I know but just wanted to remind you how much she loves you

Helpful

I second this - dyslexia and dyspraxia are commonly co-morbid with ND conditions. As is the PDA profile. I would definitely ask older sibling gently to butt out, but we found with ours that ‘telling’ them what to do seemed to create conflict. Instead we would say, ‘oh, I see it’s your turn to take the bins out - do you want to do that before you watch Bluey or afterwards?’ You might also want to link her turn to do the bins with an extra episode of Bluey.

The idea is that instead of offering a concrete ‘you need to do A’ [which sets up a defiant, oppositional response] you frame it as do you want to do X or Y (both of which accomplish A). Eg: so you want to put your shoes and socks on first or go and get your school bag? You’ve communicated that both things need to be done and the objective (to be ready to walk out the door in 10 mins with bag and shoes/socks on) is still centred… but you’ve not done the ‘hurry up and put your shoes on etc as we need to leave in 10mins’ thing… which sets up the conflict. The NAS run parenting courses on PDA and there are lots of resources on line if you want to give it a try.

It takes a mindset change as parents, but becomes quite natural in the end - so much so that my DH uses the technique at work when ‘directing’ difficult staff to get a job done.

I have ADHD, diagnosed as a working adult. I wasn't super extreme and my parents weren't great in some other ways but I found it helpful not to get into weighing up the minute of the justice system within the home and help me see the bigger picture. So, not just ignore or shut down (although I sometime do say to myself JFDI!! -Just fucking do it! Not saying that's appropriate for an 8 yr old in those words- to myself.

That bigger picture, essentially, it doesn't matter whose turn it is if something comes up , tasks even out over time. Give examples of both structured and as hoc tasks. This will show it's fair.

I think if she can work towards understanding that it's about the ongoing joint effort and filling in the gaps, not the one off task, it will help her work collaboratively. So you have the framework but everyone has to fill in the gaps or flex as and when. You could do a rota alternatively. Depends if that feels necessary.

There's no point in arguing about who did what when someone has a razor sharp justice complex and is keeping score. You'll never win on her point and it's exhausting. And it isn't the point. You're at cross purposes. They (I!!) need to understand that isn't as I say the bigger picture. Keep things as fair as you can, praise her and her sister (not OTT but acknowledged her efforts) for being for flexible. She'll get there.

Also timers and warnings Mechanical feel more serious than phone. One more episode a d that's it, I'm setting the timer. With the bluey example, manage it by giving her a warning shot. Her sister's helpful involvement could have been handled by saying 'doesnt matter, we're making this the last one.

You need to stay in control. Youre arguing points to her that she sees complely differently. The thing is, shes probably not wrong. I would/ do argue in good faith. Say, it would have been my brother's turn, or I would have only seen three episodes. But of course that isn't the point. Assure her that its ok, but we all need to muck in.

She needs you to make your structure and priorities clear, not leave her fighting for a different cause not knowing why she's at odds with you. She won't get there straight away, she's a kid. But give her a clue.

Is it strictly necessarily to keep her back? What about pushing for diagnosis, extra support over summer and beyond?

All of mine (SEN and not) do so much better with a warning and clear rules.

It could be PDA but kids are usually not fond of leaving their cartoons or household jobs. To me the justice sensitivity sounds possible (could always bit of both). I don't know that's she won't do things at all, more that she's really affected by things feeling unfair and needs some work to develop a sense of proportionality.

Could the whole family make a pledge to imitate her when she goes off on one. In a really exaggerated way. Reinforcing how ridiculous her behaviour is.

If you honestly think that would help, you have issues.

The choices instead of demands.

“DD it’s turn to take out the bin. Would you like to do it now or after X”.

if she says it’s not her turn ask the question again “would you like to do it now or after X”.

If she sulks then remove engagement. Don’t explain as that just adds more demands and adds fuel to any argument and gives her something else to argue against.

It may be related to being ND (PDA type profile), may be personality and maybe age and hormones.

What ever the cause the strategies you employ need to work and choices rather than direct demands are always suggested where any type of ND are involved (dyslexia is now recognised as a type of ND).

I do appreciate the general behaviour tips, but it’s really beyond that now. You can’t ignore the sulking however hard you try. It lasts hours and affects everything and everyone. It (the sulking) is noisy and attention seeking.
Punishing the sulking doesn’t work. Asking her to sit in another room doesn’t work.She SEETHES with the perceived injustice and you just cannot reach her. I have never met another child like it

Does she behave like this at school, eg if she’s asked to do a tidying job she doesn’t want to do? If she’s told it’s someone else’s turn to do a fun job? If not, then maybe her extreme behaviour at home is due to a sense of upset or difference from school? Only at home could she feel ‘safe’ to let all her anger out? The example you gave with her dirty dog sounds like she’s holding in a lot of anger. This doesn’t have to be due to bullying at school. It could be due to her realising her differences and her immaturity.

What do you mean by noisy sulking? Does she continue to shout at you? Does she grab things from others, interrupt, try to disturb things? The seething anger you describe doesn’t sound like anger at perceived injustice to me. It sounds like anger inside her that’s waiting to burst out at any trigger.

You say you can’t reach her. Will she talk about events the day after, eg the bin flare up? If so, lay out the facts (calendar shows it’s her turn to put the bin out, etc) allow her to put her side first. Don’t contradict her as she speaks. Let her lay out her view and her feelings. Her answers will inform your way forward, eg is it that she knows it’s her turn but just doesn’t want to do it, is she happy to do it but you asked her at a time when she was busy, does she not quite understand the turns and rota, or does she understand in theory but have some kind of ‘mis-thinking’ going on where she understands the rota but because she doesn’t want to put the bins out, she thinks it can’t be her turn?

When I used to complain to my father that something wasn’t fair he’d say “life’s not fair”. I hated it at the time but it was actually really good advice. Now he wasn’t a particularly brilliant parent (benign neglect rather than anything worse) but as an adult I do think it was a useful life lesson for me :) Suggests your kid will probably get through it as well.

Jesus Christ. OP I would suggest you research a reputable drug dealer and therapist in that order for her 18th birthday of you take that approach.

There's more going on here. She sees the world differently in whatever way. You need to help her understand and manage her next steps

You could try options. Her job is either BINS or Xx other job. You give her reminders (today is bin day!, you need to do the job before tea, you’ve got 10 mins to do your job). This is a common tactic with PDA children.

I agree with this tactic. Ask her in the morning to check whose turn it is to put out the bins. Can she see on the calendar? Don't just do it on her day, do it a couple of days before and comment, "Thank you. It will be your turn in two days time, won't it?

Same with Bluey. Before you switch it on, say, 'You can watch three episodes before tea time.'

One trick I found worked like magic was to agree with their feelings but not their demands. E.g. When she shrieks about Bluey, say, "I know. It is SO difficult to stop watching a favourite programme when we know there's another episode. I just always wish i could watch the next one. It makes me grumpy too. I just want the world to go away so I can watch one more. Then one more. Then one more. Why do you think that is? Can you think of some clever ways to stop the TV from ruling you, so you are able to stop watching and come and eat dinner so you can get big and strong?" (Or age-appropriate similar negotiations 😀) It is time consuming at first and it might not work but it is worth a try.

Really don't do this. It's cruel and shaming her for behaviour she's struggling with already.

Is it a strong sense of justice though? My eldest definitely has a strong sense of fairness, and if shown it was his turn on the calendar would do it, but raise any issues over his brother not doing it the previous day (for instance)

Whereas his brother, has a strong sense of entitlement, and would absolutely fight it, with justice-style arguments, just because he didn't want to do it.

I do agree you need to just brush over it though - some things are non-negotiable, and getting out of it through sulking is not acceptable.

I agree with your dad. I think it's worth explaining a collaborative effort and it's not always exactly equal etc but brass tacks, some times we just have to get on with it and move on. Bins take 2 mins. arguing can spoil your evening. I think she'll learn that pragmatism. You did, I did. I think lts a good mix of discussion and these pithy reminders.

Just hopping on to add that this does sound like ASD (PDA) and RSD. Particularly where you say that it lasts for ages (perseveration) and also that it is ‘noisy’ sulking (sounds like stimming to try to reregulate to me). I would seriously pursue an assessment for further ND, particularly in the light of her dyslexia as it’s so commonly comorbid with other ND conditions.

Her behavior screams SEN. And I say that as an ADHD adult Al with a youngest with Autism (was Asperger’s when he was diagnosed). The injustice sounds like me. I now manage my behaviour but I had to learn to. Was never as extreme as your daughter but there are scales right?

my son had the red mist come down at perceived injustices and slights and could not be distracted once he’d gone past the pint of no return. We had therapy for him and it really helped him recognise his behaviour etc and triggers and how to manage them better. He was about 8 at the time.

how does she manage at school? If she’s fine at school she’s possibly masking all the time and then wiped out when home so you get the worst of it?

This described my step daughter to a T. She also had issues with fairness even when you gave her evidence etc. denial. Always thought about her own needs and wants before others and was unable to think outside of this. I long suspected ADHD and looked at PDA and RSD.

My autistic DD10 was never like this with the outbursts after feeling criticised but the constant arguing with every single thing I say, is still going on! Something you said also rang a bell with regards to possible Autism. You said she is behind academically and socially/in maturity and this is my DD to an absolute t! She is very behind in maths and comprehension (but doing well with everything else) and whilst she has in some regards, the maturity of an adult as she is a young carer for me (not personal care, just to be clear!) she is quite immature in comparison to her peers, in her likes & behaviours. I would say she’s (mostly) more like Year 3 than year 5 and both her current & previous teachers have said that this is very typical of Autism in girls.

Anyway, I’m just mentioning this to highlight the similarities to how you describe your DD. Have you ever considered an assessment for Autism?

Tell us you know NOTHING about SEN without telling us you know NOTHING about SEN!!!!!

Whist adhd or other SEN issue may come into play… have you looked at “highly sensitive” personailty types? Contrary to what this sounds like it doesn’t imply an overly flaky person, more someone who is above averagely attended to external stimuli, overly empathetic, and has more emotional responses…have a read up…

it a personality trait not a neurodivergence or mental health issue…like introvism (which it can go hand in hand with) or extrovert personality type. It’s just a more unusual set of strengths and weaknesses.

maybe have a read up on google and see if any of it fits.

I’m 60 and youngest sibling. The “it’s not fair” is very familiar to me. Took me till 10 years ago to realise much about me was down to being a “highly sensitised” personality type ...