Child unable to see that actually, it is fair. What could this be?

[PutTheCakeDOWN]

Rubbish title sorry, but couldn’t think how to explain it in one line.

I have a wonderful DD8 who I love very much. She is funny and caring, but as she gets older we are increasingly noticing that she struggles with lots of things. She is very behind at school academically and maturity-wise, and is about to be kept down a year in consequence.
I am pretty sure she is dyslexic and dyspraxic, and I am paying for assessments but it will still be 6 weeks wait.

The main thing I’m struggling with at the moment is that she is the world’s worst (or best!) sulker. Always has been. She has a very keen sense of injustice, and always feels she is being wronged. She will then sulk for literally hours, no matter where she is or who she is with.

We have tried everything over the years. Ignoring, punishing, explaining. Nothing gets through to her and nothing has ever worked. The older children don’t sulk and I have never EVER given into a sulk.

Triggers can be situations such as ‘DD please can you take out the bin, it is your turn?’
DD - it is not my turn!!
Calmly explain how it is her turn with reference to calendar.
DD cannot see that it is her turn, continues to refuse and sulk.

Triggers also include ANYTHING that amounts to slight criticism. Eg…
Me - come on DD, time to turn Bluey off now please
DD - just one more!
DS13 - she’s already watched like 5, she watches too much TV
DD will then go ballistic shouting I DO NOT, DON’T BE MEAN TO ME and probably throw the remote at him. Consequences will then follow, but she will not understand why she was in the wrong because ‘everyone is being so mean to me.’

I am finding it really wearing. And worrying - she is at the age where she’s getting asked out on sleepovers etc, and I’m so worried she’ll lose all her friends if she behaves like that.

I have always thought she is just headstrong (because she is!) and stubborn, but now I’m wondering if she can actually help it. And if she can’t, what do I do? And can’t go through life like this, but I can’t seem to stop it!

I would really appreciate some outside views on this please.

Warnings, reminders, timers, clear expectations - these are your friend here. Also allow her to make choices.

In the morning - DD it's your turn to take the bin out today. Would you prefer to do it before lunch or after lunch? DD, it's lunchtime. Remember after lunch it's time to take the bins out.

DD you can watch 5 episodes of Bluey it'll be shower time. DD, 3 episodes left then shower time. Last one, then time for a shower.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

And make sure she hears you and takes it in, otherwise it's meaningless.

Removing sudden transitions where possible will help a lot.

I immediately thought of PDA & RSD. We haven’t had a formal diagnosis for DD16 (she’s too bloody stubborn to do the assessments 🤣) but we’ve had so many support workers, teachers & friends say that they believe she is on the spectrum. I have only recently read about RSD but it could explain a lot. I would look into all of this OP.

She just needs to learn to behave

She's going to need help to do that. And ignoring a child who is upset enough to stay upset for hours isn't going to teach her anything, except that no one seems to care.

I’d be thinking about the possibility of neurodivergence Op, especially with the other things she has going on too. This kind of super sensitivity to perceived criticism (as pp has suggested above) does seem to be common to both adhd and autism. Doesn’t mean this is necessarily the case of course.

She is very quiet at school. Has friends and seems happy, but new school since January and they say she is very quiet - which is not her!!
Since she was told she can repeat a year, she is happier at school.

Thank you all 💐

Something we have done which could be a new tactic is: everyone has to stop and be quiet then…

We then pretend we are in a court so it’s seen as fair a equal. The defendant gets 1 min to state their case. The sibling or parent then gets to state their case. No one is allowed to get angry or shout or talk over another person. The judge then gets to announce the outcome and if it is that your DD needs to take out the trash you also state the consequences for not doing it.

Not sure why but it’s been working so far most of the time with our 8 year old

What does she say about school/friends? Is she coming home upset and telling you stories about perceived unfairness there? Does she moan about her friends? Does she go on playdates? What is the feedback from her and her friends’ parents after one?

I presume you are not in the UK from your talk of her repeating a year.
i would strongly suggest instead seeking help for her SEN. Repeating a year can be like shouting at a deaf person. If she didn’t get the material one way she needs a different approach.
The strong empathy with animals also sounds familiar.

And yes you need to talk to your DS and get him to butt out.

My 11 year old daughter can be similar and she has an ASD assessment in a few days. I’ve noticed a similar trait in myself (when someone at work chases me for something I feel immediately a bit defensive and sulky). The thing that made me seek a diagnosis was the fact I can’t “parent” her out of this behavior. She just can’t help it. Once she calms down she’s lovely and very apologetic, but in the moment she can’t get out of her rigid thinking.

We are in the UK. She is very happy to be moving down a year.

Why?

Unusual for an 8 year old to be “very happy” about being moved down a year

Others have mentioned rejection sensitivity disorder, and I tend to agree. It’s important to help her develop ways now of calming and coping, otherwise things won’t be easy for her as an adult. I look back at my own parents who couldn’t cope with my sister who exhibited this kind of behaviour, and wound up pandering to her and walking on eggshells around her. 60 years on, she’s been in conflict with people around her all her life, bearing a massive and aggrieved sense of perceived injustice and unable to regulate her own emotions.

If your DD does end up getting SEN support they should be able to help her develop these techniques, and some of the tips provided by PP could be helpful as well. The important thing is to let any eventual SEN team know that it is a problem.

Assume you’re in the private sector since moving down a year for SEN is not the norm in state school, and might not help.

If she’s in private that means you have money for assessments to help find out what could be going on, would do that.

She is in a school where there are two year groups in one class. She is in year 3/4 but is year 4. None of the year 4s are friends with her due to her immaturity I think. She appears younger than most of year 3 actually but fits in better with them. She is working at a year 1-2 level and is august born.
She is very relieved to be remaining with year 3 and not joining year 5/6. I think it would have been cruel to expect it of her tbh.

I would mention your concerns/queries to the people who are doing the assessments for dyslexia and dyspraxia. It is not unusual (although I am not saying in all cases obvs) for those conditions to coexist with autism/adhd/audhd/pda.

It may also be linked to just being a little more immature than her peers. Is the Bluey example from when she was younger? It seems like a very young program for an 8yo and may be indicative of immaturity.

My dd has adhd and struggles with transitions/ routines. When she was younger we had visual timetables and would discuss the day in terms of now/next and expectations. E.g - the night before - set up the visual timetable for morning - wake up, get dressed, eat breakfast, brush teeth, go to school, come home, walk dog, eat tea, empty bin/dishwasher (whatever chore) homework, tv for 30 mins (specifying 1 or 2 episodes) brush teeth, shower, bed. Then during the car ride/walk to school we could discuss the expectations for school, what subjects, if there's a trip what might be for lunch etc. on the way home we do the same for the evening - where shall we walk the dog, what is for tea, what homework is there.

Basically I removed the guesswork and the seeming randomness from the day so she didn't feel out of control.

Even without a diagnosis it might be worth reading up some of the techniques used for communicating with children with pda and some of the day planning methods etc and seeing if it helps.

How is her sleep and diet? My dd's attitude is off the hook when she is tired but sleep disturbances are a big factor in her presentation of adhd.

Bit of a leap…state school children can get individualised help too! Also, not every child in private education is from a wealthy family.
But irrelevant here as she is in state school.

I was a bit like that as a child, though I usually went and sulked on my own not throwing things and accusing others of being mean to me. I felt a very strong sense of injustice and always felt I was being criticised and marked as ‘difficult’ for being hyper empathetic, especially with animals. I don’t have a formal diagnosis but have a lot of ASD traits and looking back this is definitely how it presented when I was a child. I felt like a black sheep in my own family, and someone teasing me about being in a mood, like a PP suggested, would have just frustrated and alienated me more.

Your DD does not need to be strong armed or forced to see your perspective, she needs a sense of safety within her own family and your support to learn how to manage her big feelings. Modelling how to process disappointment, hurt, etc.. will be more helpful to her than a punishment, especially if she has PDA traits too. You can put boundaries in place of course, especially around what is unacceptable reaction (throwing, yelling, etc..) as that’s not ok behaviour. In those situations she is probably overwhelmed and needs some quiet time to process and de-stimulate, perhaps encourage her to go have some alone until she is regulated and THEN you can talk about it. Trying to reason with her in that state is futile.

I did just note your DS comment - do you allow him to behave like he is your fellow parent?

I would try to put a stop to that as I don’t think it is helping.

my eldest is 16 and often has things to say about my youngest who is 14. We remind her she is not the parent thank you very much.

Stop seeing it as sulking and see it as-

confusion about the world not working the way she thought it was supposed to (imagine if you dropped something and it floated upwards)

time out to recover her calm while she processes how wrong it went

self care after a distressing incident.

People trying to make her come round, behave better, in that time will upset her and prolong the needed space. Imagine being upset with DH and he keeps following you round telling you to snap out of it, trying to cuddle you, etc.

It really helps with these situations to work out what her understanding of it is- not because she’s right, but so you can frame it better next time so she understands.

DS always did better if we gave him more agency- let him check the calendar to see whose turn it is today, comment that the bin is full would he be able to sort it out so you can get the tea ready quicker etc.

Ask him to solve a problem and he’s amazing. Tell him to put the bins out and he’s a pain.

She may hate being shamed- shame is perceived as a survival issue so it’s very unpleasant. Try and avoid her falling short, failing, being criticised.

She will get better at handling disappointment, but only if she can break out of the Shame cycle.

Sorry hope that makes sense, typing in a rush!

Moving year groups is a big and unusual (in state schools) ‘adjustment’ for SEN. Or perhaps they can do it in this case due to DD’s summer birth date.

Would check that staying in the ‘year below’ for the rest of her education won’t restrict options for secondary and 16-19, eg some admissions authorities don’t accept ‘out of year’ admissions (in my area this is mainly individual schools/colleges). Different areas seem to have different rules.

in your situation if you have the funds I would pursue assessments.

Just a few more thoughts. Do you tell DS off for interfering in front of DD or separately? I.e does she know he is getting told off?

Do you give her the chance to succeed. For example say "dinner will be ready soon so one more episode of Bluey then we will turn it off while we eat". Then remind her of this a few times during the episode.

Could you frame things in a bit more of a positive light so instead of don't let the dog go inside (I know that wasn't your exact wording but you get the idea) " let's make sure when we get home from out walk we all take out dirty shoes off outside and we can wipe Rovers feet as well"

I am not doubting there may be other things at play here especially on the academic side and I know you are venting here which won't help but it all seems like a bit of a negative environment.

Sounds a bit like me when I was younger. I don't think I was that bad but may have rose tinted glasses. I am dyslexic, allthough never got held back a year. I did used to shout it's not fair at my mum. As an adult version of your daughter, I'm very sorry. And probably somewhere in the middle of intentional and being unable to help it.

I have autism and ADHD (diagnosed as an adult) and this sounds very similar to my behaviour as a child. No issues at school but at home it was very different. I think it was a combination of a demand avoidance profile mixed with significant rejection sensitivity dysphoria. What you said about the dog resonated with me as I was similar if anybody said anything negative about my pets, I was highly sensitive to criticism and took criticising the pet as a personal attack on me. I was also a terrible sulker.

Have you looked into an autism and/ or ADHD diagnosis? I’m not saying it is either of those things but it is often missed in girls, I wasn’t diagnosed an until adulthood. Even if she wouldn’t meet the diagnostic criteria you might still want to look into some strategies for parenting a child with autism/ adhd and perhaps PDA as well.