Child unable to see that actually, it is fair. What could this be?

[PutTheCakeDOWN]

Rubbish title sorry, but couldn’t think how to explain it in one line.

I have a wonderful DD8 who I love very much. She is funny and caring, but as she gets older we are increasingly noticing that she struggles with lots of things. She is very behind at school academically and maturity-wise, and is about to be kept down a year in consequence.
I am pretty sure she is dyslexic and dyspraxic, and I am paying for assessments but it will still be 6 weeks wait.

The main thing I’m struggling with at the moment is that she is the world’s worst (or best!) sulker. Always has been. She has a very keen sense of injustice, and always feels she is being wronged. She will then sulk for literally hours, no matter where she is or who she is with.

We have tried everything over the years. Ignoring, punishing, explaining. Nothing gets through to her and nothing has ever worked. The older children don’t sulk and I have never EVER given into a sulk.

Triggers can be situations such as ‘DD please can you take out the bin, it is your turn?’
DD - it is not my turn!!
Calmly explain how it is her turn with reference to calendar.
DD cannot see that it is her turn, continues to refuse and sulk.

Triggers also include ANYTHING that amounts to slight criticism. Eg…
Me - come on DD, time to turn Bluey off now please
DD - just one more!
DS13 - she’s already watched like 5, she watches too much TV
DD will then go ballistic shouting I DO NOT, DON’T BE MEAN TO ME and probably throw the remote at him. Consequences will then follow, but she will not understand why she was in the wrong because ‘everyone is being so mean to me.’

I am finding it really wearing. And worrying - she is at the age where she’s getting asked out on sleepovers etc, and I’m so worried she’ll lose all her friends if she behaves like that.

I have always thought she is just headstrong (because she is!) and stubborn, but now I’m wondering if she can actually help it. And if she can’t, what do I do? And can’t go through life like this, but I can’t seem to stop it!

I would really appreciate some outside views on this please.

New school is a big change, plus going down a year. She's very quiet at school so likely hiding how she feels.

The way she's behaving sounds like a kid under stress, potentially the SEN support at both home and school is insufficient, and you have high expectations around happiness.

Obviously she can't be rude to others, but a child should be allowed to 'seethe' or 'sulk' - what you actually mean is she is expressing her sadness, frustration and anger.

Her life isn't fair, no one's is, and we help children learn to deal with that by responding to them empathetically.

There are loads of therapeutic ways to express feelings - she needs help to express them more effectively and quickly so she can move past them.

This would be bullying. Shocking suggestion.

If ASD is involved could be challenges with perspective taking (google it and Theory of Mind). There are strategies we use to help with this in SEN. PDA, RSD and transition times as PP mentioned also worth looking into.

PS. Not a fan of over pathologising too. But you see certain SEN focused strategies work like magic for many (diagnosed) children.

she seems just to be struggling in all areas of life. This can be really hard. If you take a step back how many times a day is she told she isn’t doing something right? Whilst each instance is probably reasonable it will just add up to her feeling got at all the time.

Try and make some space, micro manage a day, just so that nothing goes wrong and all she hears is praise. Just to try and break the cycle for her.

other tips. Instead of telling her off immediately. Ask her would she like to try that sentence again? teaching her to take a pause before she reacts (and sadly modelling this is the best way to teach it) is what is really going to help her.

Feeling quite sad reading this. My ds late 30's had similar behaviour but I never thought there could be a diagnosis. School always got the 'good' side so they were not aware. I always described him as 'not easy'. Older dd now feels it affected her childhood quite badly and their relationship is poor. Bless her, hope you get help and things improve. It is so difficult when you are spending every day balancing work, home etc to recognise that it not just poor behaviour but you have, well done.

She understands alright, she just doesn't like it and thinks there is more mileage in arguing its not fair.
Just ignore, don't get into a debate and don't back down
Wrt the sulking, just let her get on with it.

It's very, very uncommon in a UK state school - in fact I'm not sure there is even a mechanism in place to allow it other than summer borns being allowed to start late.
Does she understand that in moving down a year she will no longer be with her peers?
Its hard to imagine a child being ok with repeating a year and not feeling like a huge failure in some way. Is it a private school?
There must be an awful lot more going on with school than you are letting on if they are actually moving her down a year, this is not something they would do just because of academic struggle.
Is it a private school?

You already suspect she's neurodivergent. I'd also suggest taking a look at strategies for RSD and PDA.

I already do all of this and she just does not get it, ever. She has never learned an ounce of pragmatism.
We are a very pragmatic family. She is never indulged in this behaviour. Siblings are always reprimanded for ‘joint parenting.’
I always explain everything in detail to her, with plenty of warning and I always lay out the plan for the day/task.
Generally though, she forgets or doesn’t understand. I used to think she just didn’t listen, but now I think actually she just doesn’t process it.

She has many lovely points - she has a wicked sense of humour, nearly always remembers her Ps and Qs, is a kind friend.

But I am beginning to think that she really just can’t process and understand what is going on.

I’m not ND (as far as I’m aware) and still internally react like your daughter in those scenarios.

These examples would hugely help me process.

For example, I cannot describe the rage I feel if after we’ve eaten DH says to me “empty the dishwasher please” even though he’s cooked. There is literally nothing I want to do less in that moment than empty the dishwasher. If, while he’s cooking, he says “could you sort the dishwasher after tea” I would happily oblige. I think it’s the time between the request and me needing to do it, and the fact I can decide when to do it (within parameters) instead of having a task foisted upon me without warning.

Similarly, if while I was trying to cope with an immediate request (while quietly and unreasonably seething) I’d be furious if a third party took it as an opportunity to criticise me more broadly. In that scenario I’d probably calmly not do the action and go back to it later instead.

I’m an adult so I can regulate those emotions and I understand they are unreasonable. But it doesn’t stop me feeling them, and if I was 8 I think it find it a lot harder to internalise and reframe my feelings.

It may be something, it may be nothing. Something to potentially think about is have you heard of or considered PDA? The resistance to demands (bin, or turning Bluey off), doing what she is asked, and the very big & intense emotions, the obsessive behaviours re. Fairness & the dog, it might be something to consider.

Again, could be totally normal strong willed 8 year old behaviour though.

Sen aside to start with
1-- She is august born and is behind at school that is going to be extremely exhausting for her every day. She woukd likely need more down time to recover etc
2-- her brother (and other siblings) are getting involved and essentially picking on her and highlighting stuff to her parents that isnt going to make her like siblings and suggests bpto me possibly buloying behaviour from sibling if hes been told to stop interfering but still does. I know quite a lot of boys from primary and secondary ag dc school and they do bully the girls and it wouodnt be pleasant to live with them. (However my dd is asd/adhd and also awful to sister and i do think it feeds into why younger dd overreacts etc here)

Sen
For asd there would also be stimming/rigid behaviour or routines.

Speech issues when young? Or communication issues.
And or sensory issues - food or clothes etc.?

She does sound young for y4. Will she watch older programs?
It sounds like her friends are younger but could that actually be friendship issues generally? Did she have friends in previous school? Does she get party invites or other kids houses?

With the dog thing was that you or a sibling sayong that? It just seems very drama driven fromn whoever that was. Calmly - dd the dog is dirty remember you/we have to make sure the house doesnt get dirty too. Or perhaps she just cant cope with switching task that quickly from a 'hyperfocus' due to asd or even dyslexia. She might be better dealing with routine things like feeding or walks rather than sudden.

Is she able to cope with breakfast clubs or extra curriculars?

I would see how she is in sept/oct after moving down. But although summer borns can struggle the needing to move down does suggest some sen.
Asd or adhd children are often only like 2/3 their age.

Does she play with the boys?

How much do you know about the window of tolerance? This makes me think very much that when she's reacting in this way she is very close to the limit of her window and/or perceived criticism is landing incredibly hard with her and taking up a lot of bandwidth so that it instantly pushes her over that edge regardless of whether she seemed fine before or not.

I'm not a doctor and of course couldn't diagnose over MN even if I was, but it reminds me of myself and my middle son DS2 (age 6.5, we both have ADHD) and DS1 (also ADHD) when he was younger, though I am not so explosive in response, DH has said that if I ever perceive the slightest bit of criticism, I react as though I am being attacked, even if the person never meant anything bad by it. I thought back through some interactions he was referencing and I realised that I literally did feel that. It felt like I was being attacked, and so if I feel comfortable with the person, I jump to my own defence, usually coming up with some excuse, justification, sometimes even false memories out of nowhere which as soon as it's out of my mouth, I fully believe it. If I don't feel safe with the person, e.g. it's an employer and I know that defending myself will come across badly, then I will tend to panic in response to this perceived criticism (literally ringing in ears, blood runs cold, heart thumping kind of panic) and I might go off and have a cry and then wonder WTF is wrong with me that I can't handle some feedback??

I am trying to do this less, but it's hard and I'm an adult with a fully developed brain and I'm on medication for my ADHD!

I would look at Mona Delahooke and possibly also Stuart Shanker's Self-Reg and Robyn Gobbel's Big Baffling Behaviours - I've found those helpful for spotting the signs when DS2 is in a brain state where he is unlikely to be able to take on direct pointers or feedback, and so I might save it for later, I might take some other step like actively reducing the distance between him and a regulated adult (which would be me, of course, since I'm the one noticing) or if I don't feel like I can stay regulated myself, I might change the activity in a non-obvious way or think through the checklist of drink/snack/toilet/movement and offer what I think he is most likely missing, or I might use the approach a few people have mentioned with sort of delaying the request a bit in order to give him some control over it. (Going to the toilet for example, he cannot be reminded or forced because it will put him into such a state of agitation that he will stand there and physically not be able to relax so it comes out - we get around this by making loud statements about how the bathroom is free and we wouldn't notice if anyone used it right now).

Obviously school etc don't do any of this and I haven't a clue how I would even start explaining it to them but while he does still explode sometimes at school, it's not as frequent or severe as it is at home, so we just get all the pent up release later on. Not fun but at least we know to have a much more low key evening on those days.

I have also found this website absolutely fantastic. I am always a bit on the fence about PDA, because I think some PDA resources are a bit naff and don't get it right, seem too far towards an extreme mindset or perhaps I'm not finding them at a time they click for me, I don't know. But this article in particular has definitely clicked for both DS and me - we both need processing time, time to get our head around things. Since reading this I've absolutely noticed it for myself as well - my DH can be quite impulsive and if he gets caught up in an impulse he can want to share that enthusiasm immediately whereas I tend to react to new things, if they are unexpected, with a level of alarm and if I can have a moment to pause first then the alarm is much less likely to overwhelm my actual response to the change. (Yes I have wondered if I am autistic, but anyway).

https://www.declarativelanguage.com/sunday-snippets-of-support/cognitive-rigidity-or-processing-time-needed-part-3

On the topic of PDA I came across the psychological term "reactance" the other day which intrigued me because the entire description of this term (to push back when autonomy feels threatened) sounds very much like how PDA is described although reactance is a temporary state which anybody can experience. I wonder if what we see as PDA is some kind of interaction between various traits, difficulties, and/or experiences, which results in a higher likelihood of reactance.

Yes not everything is SEN, but I do think if your child has some kinds of SEN then it is going to overlap and have an effect on everything. They can't turn it off and on to manage certain situations or not manage them. For example this post by Occuplaytional Therapist illustrates this very well IMO, about a child who doesn't have any diagnosed SEN condition, but does have some difficulty with fine motor control and how the impact of that overlaps with other things which causes a sort of cascade until he explodes:

https://www.occuplaytional.com/2025/01/16/low-frustration-tolerance/

Have you looked into PDA? My daughter has it and it can look like sulks and being unreasonable. Like your daughter she was fine at school in that respect. But PDA is about avoiding demands. Most PDA kids have panic attacks (this is how to interpret their tantrums), but at school, some keep their heads down as their coping strategy. But they are unlikely to be doing any work because they are avoiding demands.

This is complicated territory for most teachers, TAs, sencos etc.

My advice to you would be to cancel the upcoming assessments you have booked. If it's PDA your daughter won't easily cooperate. But also these are just assessing the socially acceptable sen issues.

I would be worried about her dropping down without having had a proper ed psych assessment. If it's PDA it is going to be a real win for her but I don't see how the school can justify it without having done any proper investigation. Why isn't she being assessed for an ehc instead? (England only of course).

I would suggest you get her properly assessed by an Ed psych who understands PDA for starters.

Then have her assessed by a speech and language therapist who understands PDA and who can observe her in the classroom. My daughter's report was astonishing to us - therapist could see all the tricks she was using to avoid doing the work, and her school (supposedly outstanding) was allowing it as she wasn't causing any problems.

I would strongly suggest you look into PDA. There are some good Facebook groups.

Btw it stands for Pathological demand avoidance syndrome. Being wierd around animals like you describe is a bit of a give away too btw.

Thanks that is really helpful!

One of our son’s friends has ADHD and also struggles when he perceives things as being unfair, even when an outsider can see it really is fair (eg the class takes turns to go first in line to get lunch, he feels it’s unfair if he isn’t first, even when he was first last time). I suspect PDA but this hasn’t been diagnosed.

I can see someone else has mentioned something similar, RSD (Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria) that sounds like it might fit with your description.

What I realised about my autistic DD (before her diagnosis) is that she was finding what I thought were age-appropriate chores really overwhelming and it was leading to long meltdowns. As your DD seems to have some learning challenges as well as coordination issues and emotional regulation difficulties I'm just wondering whether taking the bins out is actually quite a big task for her? Or perhaps it's an issue for sensory reasons? So it's not that she doesn't think it's her turn, it's that the idea of taking the bins out is too overwhelming. But she doesn't have the language to be able to express that yet.

This is not a child with a strong sense of justice. Quite the opposite- she is denying and opposing what is right. Example by the OP:

“DD please can you take out the bin, it is your turn?’
DD - it is not my turn!!
Calmly explain how it is her turn with reference to calendar.
DD cannot see that it is her turn, continues to refuse and sulk.”

That isn’t standing up for what’s right. It’s trying to get out of doing something when it’s her turn, by denying that it’s her turn despite evidence.

Worth reading these approaches regardless of whether there's an SEND basis. The PANDA approach can work really well with any child.
FREE! - PDA Pick Battles Resource - PANDA Approach - Autism Support

That's a PDA response to a direct demand

Does she have maybe and undiagnosed learning disability?

Very behind academically, mental age appears lower than peers, unable to process and retain information?

Yes, deep down I suppose I think it may be an undiagnosed learning disability.
She did have some health concerns as an infant, and had genetic testing and skeletal survey as some mild dysmorphic features were noted. The results of these were normal, and so they took no further action.
But I have always wondered, ever since she was a baby.

It’s so sad. And when you’re pushing for an assessment you feel like people think you ‘want’ something to be found. When really, you just want to help them.

Interesting - I used to talk about my DS having a justice trigger when he was a similar age to OP's DD. He is diagnosed with severe dyslexia and a type of ADHD, but his father's family has strong autistic tendencies ( I only put this so vaguely because many of the family are too old to have ever been considered for diagnosis and are also high functioning in most aspects of their lives).

I raised it with his primary school on several occasions and was of course totally blanked. I do hope, but dont think, that training for SEN has improved.

Can I give you some advice on this? Grow a rhinoceros hide against medics, educators, family members and other parents (or anyone else but often these groups) who treat you like you 'want' there to be something wrong with your child, or that you are an over anxious mother, or have nothing better to do than dream up issues your child has to make you feel special. Just stop giving a toss what these blinkered people think or say.

If your child has SEN, then you do need different strategies for teaching them how to behave, different ways of handling them when they don't, and a lot of unsolicited advice will be entirely wrong.

I think you need to have her assessed for more than just dyslexia and dyspraxia.