Year 1 child excluded - help please

[ncforschoolhelp]

Hi all

I have a previous thread about my year 1 child's behavioural issues almost exclusively at school. He has now been temporarily excluded and I am really hoping for advice from any parents of young children who have been through similar, any teachers who could give any advice and any governors who might be able to shed some light on any appropriate next steps for me or from the school.

The reason given today was his level of disruption wasn't feasible for him to stay in the building and he wasn't calming down with the usual interventions the school give.

Happy to answer any q's and apologies for lack of insight so far.

Thanks all. So much.

Some more answers;

• no way can I take a year off. Not financially possible at all. Would involve significant downsizing and relocation away from friends / family / support network.

@mikado1 super useful and helpful thank you.

• I do think setting might not be right. It's an infant / junior system which is unhelpful really. Primaries don't really take in year transfers.

• I don't think SEN but if I had to diagnose I'd say ODD maybe ad possibly some ADHD but nothing really resonates or reflects home behaviours

• poor behaviour at home leads to consequences such as loss of screen time (he doesn't have much) loss of toys, loss of special events etc. good behaviour at home leads to positive consequences. We reward kindness above all else.

I've made lots of notes and this has been so helpful.

@Octavia64 thank you - we've discussed the ABC approa ch with school.

I agree re the setting and think a more formal structured classroom approach would be better as opposed to some child led / some adult led which his current school has.

A lot of parents try to delay by not turning up but it doesn't work, we go ahead regardless and without anyone to really advocate for the child

Isn’t what you and @Hoppinggreen are referring to an appeal by parents against the exclusion?

I'm an almost-20 years infant teacher, and I've only seen one under-7yo excluded.
That particular kid? His answer as to why he was behaving like this was just "I like being naughty." Unfortunately his behaviour was impacting on other children who were starting to copy him, and he had to go. He ran out of chances basically. There had to come a point where the plug gets pulled for the sake of the other 29 very small children in the room, who are trying to learn.

What does your son say about his behaviour when he's asked at home? That can be very insightful.
If he doesn't like to lose, what experiences of "losing" are you giving him at home to help build resilience? The dislike of losing is very, very common amongst young children, and tbh, they need to experience it regularly. Always letting them win does them zero favours.
What are the consequences at home for poor behaviour at school? "A talking to" isn't going to cut it. Little kids struggle to apply "mummy is cross" to "my teacher told me off 6 hours ago."

Consequences need to be severe enough to be impactful, but also correlated. You were violent at school? Then sorry, it's straight to bed after tea because I can't trust you not to be violent with the family. You broke something on purpose at school? Then you lose access to a favourite toy at home.

Some of the things you've said about him, make me think of high functioning autism. Unfortunately, that can be hard to diagnose in little kids. Because it's a hard line to see between "he's just a bit weird" to "he's autistic". Lots of little kids are bloody odd, but not necessarily autistic.

All that being said, an exclusion can be the best worst thing that could happen. Because it shows the school can't meet his needs, and it'll encourage the ball to roll into more support.

Also, the whole "he's not like this at home" is pretty meaningless. If he can't function in a compliant way outside of the home, then he needs a lot more intervention.

Children can only be removed for up to 45 school days in one school year even when moving, so any suspension after this there's a panel meeting.

You've mentioned that his main issues seem to be around sharing/losing/taking turns and not being able to manage these when they're out of his control. I'm sure you already do, but if not, you could really try working on these at home. Using cards that SHOW what you'd like him to do instead of verbal cues also tend to work well as sometimes they're already trying to hold it together, so asking them to do something often is the straw that breaks the camels back, as they say. So for example my turn your turn games, showing a my turn card instead of saying this. Same for lining up. Try lining up Toya and naming these some of the kids names in the class, again, using cards to show 'wait' 'my turn' etc. lowering vocal demands can often help a transition a lot too.

With the suspensions, these are quite rare in the school I work in and a child really really has to 'evidence' that they're unsafe/making it unsafe for others. I would ask what they've out in place to avoid him getting so heightened in the first place and also ask what type of social/emotional interventions he is in to try and assist with this in school. Simple adjustments such as coming in through the office as opposed to lining up In the mornings/at pick up. Or being the 'buddy' of the front line marker for that day so that he still gets to be at the front but so do the other children then rotate it to being the back line markers buddy for the next day etc. We get the kids who struggle with these things to be out helpers, they do tasks with us to keep them occupied and give them some responsibility and self worth.

I hope the meeting goes well for you guys tomorrow and you come out understanding a little bit more of what the main struggles are and how they're trying to help with these. X

You say that this is only an issue at school so I have to ask do you always/almost always let him win at home? And do you allow him and his outbursts to dictate what happens at home?
If not what consequences do you put in at home and how are his outbursts delt with at home and could it or some variation of it work in a school environment.
What consequences does he face at home for his outbursts at school.
I'm loath to say this but if the behavioural team are saying it's not sen then have you considered changing how you parent him at home as if you're letting him win and pandering to his wants by allowing him to control things he will expect the same everywhere. Basically what I'm trying to ask is do you need to learn how to say no and teach him to be a graceful looser

If school have been using the ABC approach then they ought to have fairly detailed information about in what sorts of circumstances he is disruptive/violent etc.

in similar situations things that have been tried:

home/school book for communication
sticker chart for every day he manages in the school with no disruption and screen time/whatever motivates him at the end of the week
sitting out activities likely to lead to problems (assembly etc)

most branches of the national autistic society run in person parental support groups and while you child may or may not be autistic he is displaying behaviour similar to many autistic kids and you may find one of their groups helpful.

At 7 years old he might not have the vocabulary to explain his own behaviour, so it's a bit disgusting that you're talking about a child in this way.

Alexythymia is real and not just limited to those with a diagnosis.

Hi, sorry about your situation, I have read all your posts but not everybody else’s. I’m a primary school governor. I think your child has been suspended, not excluded. It could be a number of issues at play but I would advise cooperating with the school to see how you can work together to support your child. It could be that the school see the suspension as a necessary step to gather evidence of need that will allow tour child to receive more support. If you think the setting is the issue, I would look at other schools. Primary schools do take in year transfers. Good luck!

I have just read your thread from November where you talk about your child's poor behaviour being down to issues at home (feeling put out by new sibling) and you are full of praise for the way the school were handling him.
So what do you feel has changed?

Sorry I forgot to mention that the school where I am governor has many success stories involving children who have been excluded form other schools, either in supporting them at the school or in finding the right specialist settings for them, so sometimes certain schools are better suited for certain children than others. But I would of course try to work with the current school in the first instance.

You don't need to get those reports at this stage. To get an assessment, which is the first stage of the process, you only have to show that your child may have SEN and may need support through an EHCP. It sounds as if he certainly meets most criteria on the basis of the evidence that already exists.

If or when you get to the stage of an EHCP being drafted, it may well be worth securing independent reports if you possibly can, since too many EHCPs are badly drafted but you need professional evidence in order to make substantive changes.

OP, try not to consider ODD. It's a diagnosis I haven't seen used in the UK in the past 15 years. It's occasionally used for "conduct disorder" which is where kids much older than yours have no boundaries or role models and go out pinching cars and vandalizing stuff. It's not used in 5 year olds. It suggests that there is something wrong with the child that makes them oppositional and defiant and doesn't consider their context, their skills, the expectations upon them, what support a child has and so on.

PDA is also a much raree condition than you might think if you look at Mumsnet. PDA autism is rare. Given that he is compliant or effortfully tries to be compliant at home, and given that you are looking only at certain trigger demands that produce heightened response, this is not very likely imo. Demand avoidant behaviour in autism is very common (and different from PDA) and is usually due to inappropriate context and demands triggering a fight or flight response. I know you don't know if DC is autistic or not, but just to give you more info about labels that are in use on this thread.

Trust me that the next thing to try is relationship building and modelling of managing frustrations and anxieties. Schools get stuck in control and behaviour modification (reward charts, confrontation, even social stories) and forget that bright 5 year olds know it's not right to pinch, kick and hit, but can't manage their feelings in the moment. This is about emotional regulation, not defiance or PDA.

I am sorry and be kind to yourself.

Firstly, and a broad answer as I don’t know the full details as I am sure you are still discovering.

I would say your child may have a form of SEN, this could be driven from separation anxiety, anxiety around schools (quite frankly there are not enough very small calm, peaceful and nurturing schools full of outdoorsy stuff where I believe many children would thrive over the large Primaries dominating our education system - don’t get me started).
I have seen ASD children be angels / normal at home, yet into school and they completely change into something upsetting, possibly they cannot cope with the demands of a medium to large school. These children usually showed signs in nursery and often became agressive, is this something you have noted?

Have a big calm cup of tea, maybe take your DH or a friend who you would trust to be a neutral confident, you don’t want someone to get angry more someone to listen, understand and listen to their advise as they will have had experience on this before. I would work with the school.
i would say your have two options, demand a different place in another mainstream school, or if they suggest EHCP with specialist setting, the earlier you get this organised the better. Schools are only allowed to refer 2 students a term T the moment apparently and they have to be under exclusion or refusing to attend. You could look to defer counties if this is the case under “right to choose”. This will need to be your decision, but do speak to the school to what they suggest.
this is probably going to need to get out the big girl knickers time, all I would say is the quicker you come to the table in all this the better.

good luck.

@ForChicPoet, what a dim response,

We have been through exactly this, OP. Feel free to message me and I will be happy to help you, this stuff is so hard.

You might be right there that the school want to show that they are doing something, especially if he has been harming other children - has he? Other parents might have gone in asking what the school are going to do about it if their children are being harmed by yours - is that a possibility?

Be careful with SENDIASS, Some are good but too many repeat the LA’s unlawful policies.

In-year transfers are possible in primary. The problem you may have, especially because of the infant class size limits, is you might be quite limited on who has spaces. However, I would hold tight whilst you make an EHCNA request. It isn’t a lawful reason to refuse to assess, but sometimes LAs refuse when DC have recently started a new school to ‘see how DC is once settled’.

It is worth remembering not all DC with SEN will have (or go on to have) a diagnosis. Having SEN doesn’t always equal having a diagnosis. For many it does even if they aren’t yet diagnosed, but for some it doesn’t. I am not saying DS won’t be diagnosed with anything just saying pupils can still have SEN even if they don’t have a diagnosis.

My dd has a specialist teacher working with her (autism). She says there is ALWAYS a trigger. I know you said losing, but if he's different at home then school must have a trigger. I hate the sound of the mixed year free flow environment. My dd needs a peaceful class and I've had her moved in secondary. Luckily didn't need to move schools.

I don’t think this will be the case as a 24 hour exclusion is quite an extreme move, but we don’t know what other measures/sanctions/punishments have happened for your son at school in the past, but maybe they are showing to be “doing something” as an example to the other children as they are very young to be able to understand that it’s ‘OK’ for your son to fly off the handle when he doesn’t win or get his own way, but not OK for any of the rest of them. Imagine a whole classroom of kids kicking off if they don’t come first etc. We don’t know to what extent he’s losing it in these scenarios ie. what he’s doing, so maybe there have been many things put in place and this is the last resort.
Especially if there’s nothing in place because he’s not diagnosed with anything, something does need to be done instead of him just getting away with it, or at least it seeming that way to others.
@ncforschoolhelp What have you said to your son about whatever it is that he’s done this time and the fact that it’s led to him being excluded from school?

Do you have strict boundaries at home?
What happens when you want him to do something he doesn't want to do?

Don’t rule out ASHD/ASD at this stage OP. He may have a less classic presentation (so many bright and able kids get missed). Also, don’t focus on the triggers as some have suggested (the not wanting to lose thing). Look at what’s building before that…potential sensory overload up to that point. I would ask school to start putting a referral for assessment together. They usually have to detail two terms’ worth of interventions on the form, so that should focus their minds. I would push for that Ed psych referral and point out that there’s clearly more they can do to support that hasn’t been tried yet. I would ask for specifics around what they’re doing preventatively - pre-emptive break out spaces/times, a behaviour profile that his teacher/ta use to meet his needs. What outside help are they getting? LA resources but also their wider network (my husband is a primary head and they seek advice and support from a local specialist school). Have they considered whether an EHCP is needed? I’d give them a long to-do list to work through and ensure they’ve got detailed plans. Because every time they don’t hold up their end but still exclude him, they’re breaching his rights to an education.

This isn't any quick practical help, but just want to add it sounds so similar to what happened with my son in year 1, and he was eventually diagnosed with autism, so you may not want to rule it out.