How do you honestly feel about a baby having two mums?

[Corneliusthecamel]

Hi,

Recently, a close friendship has come to an end and it’s been difficult to process. Long story short - I am a woman married to another woman and I gave birth to a baby last year who was conceived via sperm donor/fertility treatment through the NHS. We are all really happy and she is beautiful.

A good, long term friend of mine has become increasingly distant over the past couple of years. I confronted her about this recently and she admitted that she struggles with my life choices and doesn’t feel it’s right that I have chosen to bring a baby up with another woman. She feels very strongly that a baby should have a traditional mum and dad unit where possible and feels that I am wrong for choosing this path.

Anyway, the friendship is over, and I think that’s the right thing for both of us - it’s not really possible to carry on when we both have such different views and experiences of the world.

But it has made me want to ask - what are your honest opinions of two women choosing to pursue fertility treatment and having a baby? Obviously it’s my life and I’m happy so in one way, who cares. But I truly didn’t think my friend held those types of views and often, people won’t speak their true thoughts in real life, so I am curious what people truly think about it

Ah okay.

Oh meant to address that in my first post! Our ICB doesn’t fund any IUI or IVF for female same-sex couples. We went private and decided to go right to ivf as it had better success rates.

It’s hugely dependent on where you live as to what you qualify for. There is movement to make things fairer but that hasn’t happened yet.

I think you've misunderstood my point.

Not being able to conceive naturally can be incredibly traumatic for a heterosexual couple. Then, after proving they can't, they join a treatment queue. With same sex couples who, in all likelihood, hadn't even decided they wanted to have children when the heterosexual couple started their journey.

How would you make it ‘fair’?

It's queue jumping.

You know, I think two amazing dads or two amazing mums are far better than a shit mum and dad combo. Not all Mums are nurturing or affectionate, I know mine wasn't. My dad was the one who was loving.
I think it is advantageous to have a male presence (whether that be an uncle or good friend) and a female preference the other way around, if possible. However, again, it depends hugely on the personalities of the people involved!

Honestly I think in today's day and age it's fine. A lot of dads are deadbeats anyway and only see their kids every other weekend or not at all. Having two loving, present women as parents would be better than an absent father.

As a bi Gen Z who would like to have a kid with a woman someday...here's my take. I was raised by my mum & maternal gran myself so not 2 mums, but 2 female figures. It was great! My uncle, who couldn't have kids tho he wanted them, would come round every week & would do more traditional dad stuff like football & comics. My father is honestly a truly awful person (I haven't seen him since I was a baby) who was abusive & fought a prolonged battle to get residence.

There's a lot of discourse in discussions of lesbian parenting about whether 2 mums are overly coddling. My own mum was v affectionate but definitely the authority figure, my gran was the more permissive one. I've read that the good cop-bad cop is possibly more the issue than gender is, and I agree somewhat.

However, I think it's important to stress that kids can react v differently. Some are, like me, fine w not having bio dad around.

I think in my case it was OK bc 1. I was aware he was unpleasant so wasn't longing to meet an dreamed-for father 2. I had a father figure in my uncle who was probs more engaged than average uncle would be.

I think you're making an unwarranted assumption that lesbians/bi choose to have children later on. Studies have occasionally shown even more of a desire to have kids than the average hetero women, most studies though just show equal desire.

However, I agree w your queue jumping point.

I don't really agree w lesbians going for IVF if they are fertile. If there is a genuine issue w fertility sure,. But I think if there isn't, it's much better to find a good man the couple can coparent with and do insemination w a syringe independently. Much cheaper too.

I think being on the birth certificate would,or it should.

Why do you say 'no more than a step mother'? A stepmother would not have been there, planning and wanting that baby from before the baby was even a foetus. Legally I can kind of see your point,but in terms of the mother's emotions, I think it's awful to refer to her as 'no more than a stepmpther'.

Here is a study showing often children are bonded equally. I've heard reciprocal IVF can help w this. However otoh I would argue in hetero families children are often closer to their mothers. That's the case for several of my friends, generally their fathers are c busy at work. The need for one to a breadwinner could mean the sahm bonds better.

www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/10166703/2/Jadva_ead047.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiFzuy_yKqNAxVZYEEAHchOO0kQFnoECBcQBg&usg=AOvVaw0fB4W190scOHmLZO361wJW

"Not having a baby together, it's the birth mum's' - in genetic terms that's true.

But I think it's wrong to overlook the emotional component. The non birth mother will have longed for that baby from before it was born, just as birth mum did. Planned for the baby w her partner, etc

Kind of like adoption : an adoptive mother is not biologically the mother. But emotionally she is. And a non-bio lesbian mum, as I say, will have been planning the child since before conception w the bio mum.

You could point that out too for a mum who uses donor eggs, though ethically that is debated.

Would you see an adoptive mother as not really a mother bc she's not biologically related? Yes, not a mother ij the sense of a biological mother, but surely a non-bio mother (or an adoptive mother) is a mother in the social sense of raising the child? Or do you only define mother as a biological thing?

Plus in reciprocal IVF, one woman gives birth to the other's biological child, so in a sense they are both mothers.

No, the baby is 50% the biological mother (whose egg was used) and 50% the father (whose sperm was used), regardless of in which ‘vehicle’ it grows.

Using your logic, a surrogate mother would be a mother to the child

We need to consider this not from the adult’s viewpoint (who may well long for a child) but from the child’s point of view.

A child, as part of their identity development, will want to understand who they are: who is my (biological) father and who is my (biological) mother?

I actually feel that a lot of the comments on this thread are very much about the parents’ longings and desires, how loving they are/will be.

It’s equally important to see things from the child’s perspective, and there are many aspects that may matter to them, irrespective of how ‘loved and cherished’ they are.

@Redflamingos a surrogate mother is the mother regardless of whether it was someone else’s egg. She’s not just a vessel.

But no one has a baby out of altruism. Having a child is always about the parents.

Oh, I definitely agree w that. So you were talking in biological terms? I understand. As I said in an earlier post, I think lesbian couples should always coparent w a good, suitable male friend, not use anonymous donors.

This paradox is the crux of why surrogacy is wrong, imo.

a woman carries a child grown from another woman’s egg.
a second woman does the same.

the first was a recipient of a donor egg, and is considered the mother.
the second is a surrogate, and is not considered the mother.

so what does mother mean? Is it the woman who is pregnant, or the woman who provides the egg? it can’t be that money or social status or “wanting a baby” makes a difference to the answer…but it is.

That's what I believe. A surrogate mother is not the biological mother, but she is also the mother. Carrying & birthing the child is not to be discounted. I don't agree w paid surrogacy, and worry about pressure & effects on child if done for a relative. I'm sure it can be OK, but how will you know until the child is an adult?

Exactly! I an v uncomfortable w surrogacy.

It makes no sense because it’s the medical world going too far and then having to justify it.

Exactly. A child should always know & have relationships with their bio parents unless impossible. That's why I think lesbians should coparent w a friend. Germany has a good scheme to connect lesbians w a gay man to befriend and raise kids with.

In neither scenario is the mother the biological mother. The resultant baby shares zero DNA with her. Did i interpret that correctly…?