How do you honestly feel about a baby having two mums?

[Corneliusthecamel]

Hi,

Recently, a close friendship has come to an end and it’s been difficult to process. Long story short - I am a woman married to another woman and I gave birth to a baby last year who was conceived via sperm donor/fertility treatment through the NHS. We are all really happy and she is beautiful.

A good, long term friend of mine has become increasingly distant over the past couple of years. I confronted her about this recently and she admitted that she struggles with my life choices and doesn’t feel it’s right that I have chosen to bring a baby up with another woman. She feels very strongly that a baby should have a traditional mum and dad unit where possible and feels that I am wrong for choosing this path.

Anyway, the friendship is over, and I think that’s the right thing for both of us - it’s not really possible to carry on when we both have such different views and experiences of the world.

But it has made me want to ask - what are your honest opinions of two women choosing to pursue fertility treatment and having a baby? Obviously it’s my life and I’m happy so in one way, who cares. But I truly didn’t think my friend held those types of views and often, people won’t speak their true thoughts in real life, so I am curious what people truly think about it

How can the children find out who their 2 biological parents actually are?

Only one of the ‘mothers’ can be a biological mother.

How can the children find out who their father is?

These questions can really matter for children as they grow up.

What if the woman has more assets than the man? There is a reason Rihanna isnt married.

You guys here are so old fashioned thinking all women are broke little things reliant on their husbands and fathers for money. Some of us have more than our men because we've worked for it and kept what we were given.

They have the right to trace their donor now. Well not trace, but know who they are.

Sperm donors via a clinic aren’t on the birth certificate and never have been. The child can go to the clinic when 18 and find the donor, just as with all donor sperm used by single mothers or heterosexual couples.

Meanwhile, back in reality, most men earn more than the woman in the relationship, if not the same as, particularly if children are involved. Most women reduce their working hours, if either of them are going to do it. If being a SAHP is an option, it's ordinarily going to be the woman. Proportionately, the woman is normally not the breadwinner. Rihanna doesn't represent the average mumsnetter.

But do you think that’s acceptable? I would hope that each generation will move towards fixing some of this - we are already far better off than women in the past, and are making great strides toward. Hopefully with more and more equality a lot of what you say will no longer be true for the generations to come.

I think sometimes its inevitable. I didn't want my husband to do my maternity leave. We both work full time and if anyone is ever going to cut their hours, I want to be the one to do it. I think every family should work together for the best of that individual unit. For situations where the man financially has the upper hand, a wife will have some protection via the marriage.i don't want to derail the thread any more. Sorry OP.

Honestly, who cares?
This is about you and your family!
Most important is for the kid to have to engaged and present parents. Regardless of their gender.
Your are doing a great job!
also - a lot dads are useless, so… don’t fret!

Outside of white people, the gaps between men and women's earning are much smaller. So much smaller that many women won't gain much financial protection from being married. In fact, it will prevent them from accessing some of the things they'd get as a unmarried parent, especially if they suddenly become a single parent.

Marriage is a smart move for people already quite privileged.

Ahh, but everything is in my name and I earn 3 x more than him. And my pension is 10 x his. It is definitely not in my interests to get married. I advocate for women to have their own money, careers and finances and to be fully self sufficient.
And as for terminology, it just is easier when speaking to people we dont know to use that terminology. we dont use it to each other, or people we know. But there isnt actually a one word term that describes a long term partner who you have committed to and have no intentions of leaving, also when you say partner people often think same sex and when you say boyfriend, people think someone you met last week. I wish there was a good word for it actually. In anycase noone is policing our language.

Yes this way of thinking is more for women who marry for social mobility. That's more common in the middle and upper classes.

The masses are content that they'll marry and die poor together.

It’s startling how many posters feel ok to express their opinions without actually knowing current practice with regards to birth certificates, donor anonymity etc. If you are fully informed and, on that basis, express a negative opinion then, although I disagree with you, I do so respectfully as at least we’re disagreeing over the facts.

Also funny how insistent some posters are that children need both a “male” and a “female” role model (even some posters who are positive) but would absolutely, on other threads, be adamant that they don’t agree with gender stereotypes!

Do you think? I think that a lot of people get married because it is a social, religious and societal norm and because of legal protection. A lot of people get married because their family expects that they do before having children.
You can have a ceromony without the legal papers if you want to declare your love. And change your name by depol if you want the same name.
You don't actually need to declare your love to the government to have a valid long term relationship.

Male and female are sex categories. Not gender stereotypes.

Ok then, stereotypes linked to sex categories.

I agree. Marriage is far less common in my culture and often takes place when people are in their 50s or 60s and empty nesters.

I don't think MC white women are getting married because their parents want them to be blessed by the sanctity of marriage before they debase themselves. It isnt about religious purity. It's about ensuring you have financial protection in exchange for you bearing their heirs. It's smart business. It ensures you get your end of the deal (social mobility) as well as them getting theirs (the companionship of a woman and heirs to your throne).

Things haven't changed much among the upper classes since the medieval times when it comes to partnership. It's still a business transaction.

My son went to nursery with a little boy with two mums and a little boy with two dads.
He was clearly jealous of the boy with two mums and asked multiple times why the other little boy didn’t have a mummy.
I feel the same way. Two mums is the dream. Also have no problems with donor gametes but huge problems with surrogacy.

Yes - I should stop derailing!

OP - congratulations on your beautiful family, all the more beautiful without including hateful bigots. You’re all better off now but it’s a horrible thing to have found out about someone you used to like.

very different experience but I had a whole branch of my family disown me after I married out of my religion. I’m better off for it though it was terrible at the time.

Interesting, which culture is this the norm to get married older? I am interested in the topic :)
As a MC white woman, I know quite a few MC white women. I do think it is a lot of pressure from expectation. Often there are grannies or dads that are religious and although they might not practice any religion, it is seen as the done thing. I have friends whoes parents havent spoke to them for a tear as they had a baby before getting married, that kind of thing. And also, just they see it as what you should do, that it is the right thing to do to provide a stable family, because their parents did it, because society says so.
I would say that the upper classes, it most definitely is a contract. I had a male friend in my 20s who was MC, going out with a girl from a very wealthy family, the dad tried to pay him off as the dad wanted his daughter to marry into the industry (entertainment), she did in the end do what her dad asked and married the rich guy, but used to call my friend and see him on the side as she was unhappy in the marriage but did it to further her families empire. So it does happen that way but I think thats more the upper classes from what I have seen. I am sure people marry for social mobility across the board though,
I mean, if a billionaire started chasing me around asking to get married then I might have to discuss with my partner if he would be happy to loan me out for a few years until we divorce... and he would probably say yes :)))

So among Black Caribbean people in the UK today, we are on about our 3rd or 4th generation.

It was common for our grandparents to be married, or have been married at one time. Often for immigration reasons but religion too.

Our parents, many of who were born here in the 60s and 70s, marriage was much less common. Partly because the welfare laws in places like the US and the UK mean marriage isnt financially viable. We've been reliant on the state to make up for our low employment opportunities and that's means tested.

If our parents remained together until they got to a point they are less reliant on the state, then marriage becomes more of an option that won't ruin your life. Thats why you'll find a sizeable number of Caribbean people in the UK who have attended their parents wedding as an adult.

Yes she would have legal rights, the same technically as if it was a ‘father’ listed on the birth certificate. So if we did split up let’s say and for whatever reason I decided to get nasty and restrict access to our child (not that I would but just as an example), she could go to court and would be entitled to equal rights as a father would be. Provided that was the right thing for our child - just the same as a legal father.

Seen a few posts about marriage etc too - I believe the laws may have changed recently in the UK. So previously, same sex couples had to be married for the non biological parent to be on the BC. But that’s changed now so you don’t have to be married.

For us, we got married for several reasons - mostly because we genuinely wanted to! But also for practical reasons, in the event anything happened to me for instance, I want to be sure that my wife is entitled to everything she can be etc etc and has protections in place

No one is saying that they should be masculine men or feminine women. Just that they should have access to positive male and female role models.

How can you be so sure that the boy will still find it a ‘dream’ to grow up without a dad? As he goes through puberty and becomes a young man himself, don’t you think he might prefer to have his dad in his life?

Thats very interesting. Just another way the state stifles social mobility and incites instability for the low income families. By making it financially beneficial for higher income couples to get married. And for low income families who do want to get married and where it is more likely for the woman to be the lower earner as more likely to not afford the childcare, then it is less beneficial and would mean a drop in income.
Adding to the list of my against official marriage, the social unfairness.

So firstly - declaration of interest - I’m currently 36 weeks pregnant with mine and my wife’s first baby, a little girl, who has come about via IVF using donor sperm from a bank. So obviously I’m perfectly fine with it.

I wanted to share a bit of our discussions and process before we agreed this route, how we are planning on mitigating some of the concerns and also address some of the misconceptions on this thread.

• Having a dad/male role models. Our little girl won’t have a father she will have a donor and two mums. That’s our language because we both feel mother and father are terms that encompass more than biology and include the relational and emotional side of being a present and active parent. Our baby will have grandfathers, a great grandfather, an uncle, a step grandfather, step-uncles etc…plus our friends who are men. She will also have one mum who is into sport and good at DIY and can drive and one who is good at baking cakes and likes dance. Those things are not sex-based.

• Health and genetic information - our daughter will have access to all the information we have about her donor from day 1, that’s non-identifying things. It will include info about his physical appearance, area of work, family, health, and other things we know. She will also have access to the letter he wrote for any future children and we as her parents will sign up to the donor sibling registry and support her ties to any other children who share her donor. If at any stage she develops any heritable conditions we would let our clinic know who would inform the donor and any other families. That way health info is kept up to date. This is regulated by the HFEA. Legally at 16 our daughter is entitled to independent access to non-id information (what we plan to already have told her) this prevents parents never telling a child where they come from. At 18 she can access identifying and contact information for her donor, we would support her in this if she wanted to find him and reach out. We couldn’t do it as parents on her behalf and if she isn’t interested we also would never know him. We selected a donor who clearly stated positive feelings about potential future contact.

• Birth certificate - my wife will be listed as second parent because we are married. That’s the same as for heterosexual married couples. Nobody does a DNA test on a baby to check the husband is the “real father”. Most are, many are not. It relies on the mother being honest and knowing the facts of the child’s conception. This means my wife has parental responsibility for our daughter and can make decisions just as I can, that’s important for stability for our daughter now and in the future - should we separate or divorce we would co-parent our daughter and ensure arrangements remain in her best interests. If I die then our child will not be removed from the only other parent she knows and who has raised her. That’s a good thing.

Yes there will likely be things we haven’t thought about or that happen unexpectedly, that’s life. But that’s no different, better or worse than for a couple made of any other setup. We also had to think about and address the above questions because we had to have mandatory counselling before starting treatment and be “signed off” as fit parents before we started the cycle.

Hope that helps some people understand the current situation a bit better :)