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Original poster

Sigh. Pope Leo’s first sermon…

517 replies

CurlewKate · 09/05/2025 19:32

“"A lack of faith is often tragically accompanied by the loss of meaning in life, the neglect of mercy, appalling violations of human dignity, the crisis of the family and so many other wounds that afflict our society,"

I don’t know why I expected anything different. Maybe because he likes Wordle?

OP posts:
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8
OutwiththeOutCrowd · 11/05/2025 23:06

What I would like to know is whether Pope Leo spent us much time composing his sermon as Mumsnet has spent analysing it. I think probably not.

Pope Francis seemed rather pro-atheist with his pronouncements or at least not condemnatory. I thought that was a step in the right direction.

cakeorwine · 11/05/2025 23:10

noblegiraffe · 11/05/2025 22:42

You say that despite him having two clearly delineated groups, he wants you to think that something he says about the first group applies to some people in the second group, despite him not actually saying that.

You haven't provided any reason as to why that would be the case given the two groups being clearly delineated.

He talks about the two groups earlier too

"First, there is the world’s response. Matthew tells us that this conversation between Jesus and his disciples takes place in the beautiful town of Caesarea Philippi, filled with luxurious palaces, set in a magnificent natural landscape at the foot of Mount Hermon, but also a place of cruel power plays and the scene of betrayals and infidelity. This setting speaks to us of a world that considers Jesus a completely insignificant person, at best someone with an unusual and striking way of speaking and acting. And so, once his presence becomes irksome because of his demands for honesty and his stern moral requirements, this “world” will not hesitate to reject and eliminate him.

Then there is the other possible response to Jesus’ question: that of ordinary people. For them, the Nazarene is not a charlatan, but an upright man, one who has courage, who speaks well and says the right things, like other great prophets in the history of Israel. That is why they follow him, at least for as long as they can do so without too much risk or inconvenience. Yet to them he is only a man, and therefore, in times of danger, during his passion, they too abandon him and depart disappointed."

You'll notice that the first group is a 'place of cruel power plays and the scene of betrayals and infidelity'. Your interpretation requires that he actually means that some people in the second group are actually doing the power plays, betrayals and infidelities in the first group. But they are clearly meant to be two separate groups of people.

He is talking about 2 groups:

  1. The group who despise or pity Christians, who look for other things in life, like power, success and pleasure

  2. A group who appreciate Jesus as a man and as a leader. This group contains non believers and baptised Christians - in a state of practical atheism.

Do you not think other possible groups exist? Or is it a binary choice between despising and pitying Christians whilst seeking pleasure in life - or in appreciating Jesus as a man and a leader?

And both groups lack faith.

Why is it only the first group that you seem to be thinking that a lack of faith can lead to those issues we've mentioned but not the second one?

cakeorwine · 11/05/2025 23:11

OutwiththeOutCrowd · 11/05/2025 23:06

What I would like to know is whether Pope Leo spent us much time composing his sermon as Mumsnet has spent analysing it. I think probably not.

Pope Francis seemed rather pro-atheist with his pronouncements or at least not condemnatory. I thought that was a step in the right direction.

I doubt it!!!

Sweetsummerchild2 · 11/05/2025 23:20

OutwiththeOutCrowd · 11/05/2025 23:06

What I would like to know is whether Pope Leo spent us much time composing his sermon as Mumsnet has spent analysing it. I think probably not.

Pope Francis seemed rather pro-atheist with his pronouncements or at least not condemnatory. I thought that was a step in the right direction.

Oh yeah, he looks like a guy who spends a considerable time practising in front of his gold plated mirror.

noblegiraffe · 11/05/2025 23:35

cakeorwine · 11/05/2025 23:10

He is talking about 2 groups:

  1. The group who despise or pity Christians, who look for other things in life, like power, success and pleasure

  2. A group who appreciate Jesus as a man and as a leader. This group contains non believers and baptised Christians - in a state of practical atheism.

Do you not think other possible groups exist? Or is it a binary choice between despising and pitying Christians whilst seeking pleasure in life - or in appreciating Jesus as a man and a leader?

And both groups lack faith.

Why is it only the first group that you seem to be thinking that a lack of faith can lead to those issues we've mentioned but not the second one?

Show quote history

I don't give a toss whether other groups exist. But his speech is not split into atheists and believers, it's split into people who despise and mock Christianity who are depicted as living in a world of power plays, betrayals and infidelities who desperately need catholic outreach because of their tendency towards bad things.

And non-believers in Jesus as saviour who think Jesus was a good guy who said some interesting things. He doesn't say that these people desperately need catholic outreach because of their tendency towards bad things.

Why doesn't he save the bit about these people needing catholic outreach because of their tendency to bad things as a concluding paragraph about both groups if he meant it about both groups?

Sweetsummerchild2 · 11/05/2025 23:39

noblegiraffe · 11/05/2025 23:35

I don't give a toss whether other groups exist. But his speech is not split into atheists and believers, it's split into people who despise and mock Christianity who are depicted as living in a world of power plays, betrayals and infidelities who desperately need catholic outreach because of their tendency towards bad things.

And non-believers in Jesus as saviour who think Jesus was a good guy who said some interesting things. He doesn't say that these people desperately need catholic outreach because of their tendency towards bad things.

Why doesn't he save the bit about these people needing catholic outreach because of their tendency to bad things as a concluding paragraph about both groups if he meant it about both groups?

Show quote history

Are you doing your GCSEs by any chance? 😅

cakeorwine · 12/05/2025 07:42

noblegiraffe · 11/05/2025 23:35

I don't give a toss whether other groups exist. But his speech is not split into atheists and believers, it's split into people who despise and mock Christianity who are depicted as living in a world of power plays, betrayals and infidelities who desperately need catholic outreach because of their tendency towards bad things.

And non-believers in Jesus as saviour who think Jesus was a good guy who said some interesting things. He doesn't say that these people desperately need catholic outreach because of their tendency towards bad things.

Why doesn't he save the bit about these people needing catholic outreach because of their tendency to bad things as a concluding paragraph about both groups if he meant it about both groups?

Show quote history

And yet you are asking people which group they belong to - and people are saying that other groups exist, but you don't give a toss whether other groups exist?

And you haven't mentioned the "lack of faith" part. Both of those groups (as well as the other groups) can have a lack of faith.

In his lack of faith part - he said "a loss of meaning in life". Which is also what the Vatican said in their summary.

Does thinking Jesus was a good guy mean you are less likely to have " a loss of meaning in life?"

noblegiraffe · 12/05/2025 07:52

And yet you are asking people which group they belong to

Because I'm pretty sure they don't think they belong to group 1, yet that's the one that needs the outreach for their tendency to do bad things.

Group 1 reject the moral teachings of Jesus, and mock his followers. Group 2 think the moral teachings of Jesus are good but don't think he was the son of God. Which group do you think is going to have a tendency towards bad things?

cakeorwine · 12/05/2025 07:58

noblegiraffe · 12/05/2025 07:52

And yet you are asking people which group they belong to

Because I'm pretty sure they don't think they belong to group 1, yet that's the one that needs the outreach for their tendency to do bad things.

Group 1 reject the moral teachings of Jesus, and mock his followers. Group 2 think the moral teachings of Jesus are good but don't think he was the son of God. Which group do you think is going to have a tendency towards bad things?

Is a loss of meaning in life a bad thing?

cakeorwine · 12/05/2025 07:59

Oh - and your group 2 definition keeps changing all the time.

cakeorwine · 12/05/2025 08:00

And can people in your group 2 also have a loss of meaning in life?

cakeorwine · 12/05/2025 08:01

And is this loss of meaning in life is due to a lack of faith?

noblegiraffe · 12/05/2025 08:57

cakeorwine · 12/05/2025 07:59

Oh - and your group 2 definition keeps changing all the time.

It’s in the speech.

See, it’s quite easy to say “I’m not in group 1, and I don’t think the pope thinks I am either’ and then get on with life.

(It’s also easy to say ‘I don’t give a shit what the pope thinks about me’ and get on with life).

Going ‘Waah the pope thinks I’m a degenerate because I’m an atheist’ is silly because he doesn’t say that.

Snakebite61 · 12/05/2025 11:51

CurlewKate · 09/05/2025 19:32

“"A lack of faith is often tragically accompanied by the loss of meaning in life, the neglect of mercy, appalling violations of human dignity, the crisis of the family and so many other wounds that afflict our society,"

I don’t know why I expected anything different. Maybe because he likes Wordle?

Only a dumb maga would be upset by this.

Original poster
CurlewKate · 13/05/2025 09:34

Snakebite61 · 12/05/2025 11:51

Only a dumb maga would be upset by this.

Show quote history

🤣If a “dumb MAGA” understood all those long words the Pope used, they would absolutely agree with every one of them!

OP posts:
shuggles · 13/05/2025 19:23

@CurlewKate So what do you think His Holiness meant by “lack of faith?”

He may have been referring to people who need to find more work and more hobbies as outlets for their energy, so they don't get wound up over nothing on mumsnet.

MusicMakesItAllBetter · 18/05/2025 17:47

CurlewKate · 10/05/2025 22:00

Of course he’s a Catholic. Of course he wants everyone to be Catholic-that’s part of his job. But he said that people without faith are moral vacuums likely to commit “appalling violations of human dignity”. Surely nobody can think that’s an OK thing to say?

It's not a good thing to say

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