Interesting article about the effects of divorce on womens finances, particularly pensions

[PyongyangKipperbang]

And the difference to the effect it has on men. You wont be surprised to read that they are better off than we are after divorce....

https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/stay-home-mum-50-divorced-no-pension-3628292

ahh you are projecting now - no one said anything about sitting on your arse but it would be much more equitable at home and work for both to be working 30 hour weeks.

That being said - if someone has not worked since children were tinnies and have now flown the nest there is surely a certain amount of sitting around on your arse. If that's the choice made then great and good for you - but this is about people who have chosen this then feeling shafted when circumstances change. No judgement - if I was independently wealthy, I dare say I'd be making a similar choice!

I’m 61 and it wasn’t quite like the 1950s! Plenty of my peers are divorced. Plenty of my university female friends worked part time when they had small children as childcare wasn’t as available and there were concerns about how good it was for them.

But things for men were different. They would be laughed at if they wanted part-time or flexi hours. I don’t know any professionals who even asked, unless they were ill or bereaved.

As for men working in factories…that suggestion that they could have requested flexi hours back in the 1990s or 2000s, that made me laugh.

I was also a teenager in the early 80s and that was absolutely not the message I got (I did go to a girls' grammar though for what it's worth).

Neither my DSis nor I have had stellar careers but we are both the money managers in our households, not our DHs, and tbh I see now our dad pushed us that way (despite he and our mum having a very traditional relationship, he clearly did not want that for us).

I am a teacher and am regularly shocked talking to colleagues how many don't know anything about pensions, haven't read their contract, don't realise there's a pay policy etc. Not just the women but obviously the women are more vulnerable especially as schools can be very old-fashioned and inflexible in their HR practices.

Marriage was for life, you stuck it out no matter what and divorce was seen as something shameful and not to be discussed openly. Single parent families were rare and to be pitied, as it usually meant widowhood. It was very much still a man's world.

And women were trapped in incredibly abusive relationships for decades.

That I article really annoyed me. "I had no idea who my pension was with"? Daft tart.

Yes - I think there is a big generational shift. Driven in part just by the cost of living, but also younger women today seem more likely to see their careers as equal.

Great that it worked out for you - but if you end up divorced, the woman is left in a far worse financial position.

i always worked, apart from about 2 years
but it has been part time for 30 years,

I am in my fifties and have an older sister. Neither of us would recognise the mindset that you describe, though some of what you say would have been accurate for my mother's generation, who are now in their eighties.

I am only now after 15 years of teaching (and in a school with nice management) seeing male colleagues being given a little more flexibility to e.g. drop their own kids at school. I am aware of friends' husbands who have asked to go to 4 days, for flexibility over school holidays etc being turned down.

A certain type of man can weaponise the inequality to their advantage though, which the i article does show.

I didn't say it hadn't, but of course we all speak from personal experience. This was my experience and the advice I was given by my careers teacher, despite being top stream, was to get a nice little office job until marriage and children. The girls in lower streams were pushed towards care, menial, retail or factory work. I did then go to grammar for 6th form and the attitude there was more university with a view to moving into academia. Divorce was not seen as an acceptable thing, same for unmarried motherhood. Marriage was the ideal.

I don't recognise this at all! My parents are in their mid to late 70s and my mum worked all through my childhood as did her sister and her friendship group in a variety of jobs and careers. They encouraged their children - the males and females to do the same. My MIL and FIL in their mid eighties also did factory work for the entirety of both working lives around the children and it was very typical in the industry.

interestingly the article is regarding women on my age

i note she did get 50% of her husband's pension but for some reason cut financial ties.

My experience was (echoed by a great many posters on here) is that it's precisely at compulsory school age that the problems start. School hours are short, wraparound is patchy and not long enough for a commute, and there are those long holidays to cover.

As well as the more minor problem of some schools requiring endless parental (maternal) input for this and that, and your kids being sad as you didn't send the cakes/book the disco/dress them as a Victorian scullery maid etc etc.

Very very few men bother their heads with this!

Good for you. I just couldn’t have worked with an ill child and zero family support. I tried. I was at the other end of my career and it made sense and I wanted to be with my child. It’s a shame that’s so frowned upon.

And why should we “just have to work” when it’s an exhausting slog in this day and age still heaped mostly upon the child bearer?

There’s typically two parents so both need to be responsible for the child and each other as a unit. That means topping up pension contributions to the one doing the work of loooking after the child, therefore enabling the other’s unfettered earning. Until the set up changes around paternity and maternity leave.

There needs to me more education around the wider implication of this for women so we can be more informed. It’s not a given, like it was for you

My DP and DPIL are all in their 80s. Neither DM nor DMIL supported themselves financially post marriage (which in DMIL's case was at 22 I think) although my DM had a successful small business until she had children. DFIL would absolutely not have supported DMIL working either - it was matter of pride to be able to "support a wife". DM could have carried on her business but would have had to delegate child stuff to a nanny and didn't want to.

I'm not guessing; these things have come up over the years.

My grandma didn't even know what a bank statement was when my grandad passed away and tbh my mum isn't a lot better!

I find the whole thing appalling tbh. You're so vulnerable when you lose your partner when you've totally ignored whole areas of life, and learning to cook/feed yourself is easier than learning money at an older age.

@Needlenardlenoo
but attitudes change
divorce was even harder for women in the past.
my dm trained for work as did her sister.
on divorce my own dm worked, she drove a car.

i am sure there are things i would struggle to do when a widow and vice versa for my dh, if i go first

As well as the more minor problem of some schools requiring endless parental (maternal) input for this and that, and your kids being sad as you didn't send the cakes/book the disco/dress them as a Victorian scullery maid etc etc.

Very very few men bother their heads with this!

Is it a big deal though? I forgot the blue item for something blue day just before the Easter break, my dc are fine. Ive locked myself out of the school app so DH was the one who remembered and booked the disco tickets.

I agree that times change.

Behaving like an ostrich doesn't help anyone though.

One of the great things about Mumsnet is you can learn from people who didn't grow up with the same experiences and assumptions.

I agree it’s worrying that so many women have no idea about their household finances
really glad to see more in media about the pension and investments gap

@towelonfloornot a big deal for an adult no. Could be a big deal for the kid. Some dads just won't do this stuff ever. Left to my dad we wouldn't have ever gone to a school disco. He would just have been unaware.

DH does if I step back. He's noticeably one of the few who will amongst the families we know.

I don't think it's a massive deal for dc tbh, yes if parents never go to anything or forget everything plus there's almost something every month now. DH is on the class whatsapp's as are lots of other dads, the school emails both parents etc so there's no reason for dads to not be aware now. DH won't be up late sewing a world book day costume or crafting sugar flowers for the bake sale but not will I.

When we had DC we looked at both us dropping a day at work. We both work in the same profession but there was no way at that time that DH would have been able to drop a day, no man did that!

20 years on DH is in a position in his firm to make it as parent friendly as possible (both men and women). But he notices very few men take shared parental leave when a baby comes along. A few years ago when he was made partner the resulting press release of the new board showed 1 woman. As the youngest member of the board he was shocked, most other people just accepted it. So there may be in theory no pay gap, but there is definitely still a glass ceiling. Again he is now in a position to tackle that. But he is also trying to promote that going part-time/parental leave should not stop you moving up the career ladder (both for women and men). Will be interesting to see if more men go part-time.

For those of you criticising people taking low paid jobs, what happens if no-one does these low paid jobs. Not everyone can be a high earner.

@FancyNewt I disagree with your use of the term 'no one'.
I fully intended to go back to work full time after the birth of DC1. Unfortunately they were born with a rare chromosome disorder resulting in multiple health conditions/disabilities. Initially I went back part time but once DC1 started school (specialist) it was impossible to find childcare for before/after school and school holidays. Throw in the numerous hospital appointments and emergency admissions and it was impossible to work. DC1 lived for 22 years and this was life for the whole of that time - just swapped school for adult day services.
Did we invest in a pension for me? No, we couldn't afford to having lost 1 salary which was replaced by a paltry Carers allowance (I think it was around £55pw at that time).
Once DC died, I was in no position to resume a career and quite frankly I felt I deserved a bit of a rest! I'd worked 24/7 for 22 years.
If I decided to divorce DH (believe me there have been times I've considered it), I absolutely would be going for 1/2 his pension. I did not put myself in that position. There's no way we could have lived on my salary and DH stayed at home. It was absolutely not possible for us both to work. And before you say I'm an unusual case - wrong. Mix in the circles that I mixed in of families with disabled children and you will find hundreds/thousands of women in the same position.

@ohtowinthelottery I'm sorry, that sounds very hard. You are right that disability has massive implications including financial and there isn't enough support.

I think this is the point though @Marshtit.

When we see posts from women now saying “childcare would barely be covered by my pay”, we should encourage them to think longer term. Yes, childcare is expensive and will eat up most of your take home pay, but you will also be building up pension, experience, NI contributions, etc etc.

If - like you - they choose to step back from work, with this knowledge and ‘no regrets’, great. But if they haven’t considered the longer term implications, or not discussed them with their partner, topped up pensions, etc, then that is problematic.