Kyle Clifford - does it make you think the death penalty in some cases might be right?

[mids2019]

Read about Kyle Clifford's crimes and although for most of my life objected to the death penalty actually found it difficult to find reasons in this case not to have it. I really just couldn't think of justification for keeping the guy alive as there. Is no hope of redemption, reformation or education leading to a man being able to renenter scoiety. We would be in a position of keeping someone alive for pets face it the ideological reasons we don't believe it is rig h for the state to forcibly take a life.

Maybe my mind might change but reading about that blokes crimes I think sometimes you do forfeit the right to life.

People do get out of prison someday. This recent case reminds me that if you don’t execute people, you can have idiots like Project Innocence trying to free them for misguided reasons: nypost.com/2024/12/08/us-news/shaurn-thomas-awarded-4-1m-over-wrongful-murder-conviction-confesses-to-separate-killing/

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No. We should maintain the principle that we have no right to kill other humans.

Spending the next 50 years in prison amongst prisoners who despise you, with no prospect of release, is also a worse punishment.

I'm very aware of that but he should never have been tried due to his learning difficulties.

To me this is the worst of all. You don’t want to sully your hands exacting justice for victims.

You’d rather prisoners mete out ‘prison justice’ which usually never happens and is a giant cop-out. Also same people will usually try to claim prison is meant to be rehabilitation, too.

Nobody ever suggests funding should be removed from prisoners who cost far more than a disabled person who can't work, or a pensioner who has paid NI for decades.
How many billions a year are poured into the prison service and the services around it.

So why are disabled people and old people being told they are costing the taxpayer too much and offered death so they save the country money, while violent monsters get to live supported by the tax payer for decades instead of put down like they deserve to be, which would be far cheaper?

Strange how much people seem to hate ordinary, law abiding elderly or disabled citizens and have no care for their lives while also happy to murder unborn children simply for being inconvenient, at the same time they call for the lives of rapists and murderers to be preserved.

No, we should never be able to justify killing another person.
As other have expressed, a worse punishment is living the rest of his life in prison. I’ve worked in a service that provides to prisons and never met anyone who thinks it’s a holiday camp.

If we are killing anyone who kills then what happens in cases where people kill in self defense? And if you acquit those people how do you stop others claiming they only killed in self defense too and exploiting the system?

What a ridiculous and offensive post.

For me it’s not an issue of emotion, it’s an issue of money. We’re sacrificing a pleasant and healthy society and great services to pay for the needs of a small group of frankly unworthy individuals who do nothing but make our lives hell.

Take a Class A drug user. Each one costs hundreds of thousands a year - prison stints, NHS for overdoses and fights, court cases for stealing and burglary plus legal aid, benefits, ineffective therapies… the list goes on. Is this a better use of money than education, defence, environmental health?

Each prison place costs tens or hundreds of thousands a year. Over a lifetime that is a huge sum of money. Is it right that Kyle Clifford is actively blocking money that could be spent on children’s hospices or addressing our hideous social housing shortage?

I say no. The UK is not rolling in cash any more so if you want a crap society on the altar of your luxury beliefs, you only have yourself to blame when other things are underfunded.

Giving the state the right to kill its citizens is a very dangerous thing. I'm sure we'd get rid of some wrong uns and people would cheer it on. But it's a very difficult genie to get back in the bottle once it's out and all it then takes is a rogue government to expand the categories of people who qualify to be taken out. Disabled and costing us money? Lived beyond 80 and still claiming pension? Not the "right" colour or religion? Off to death row with you. They'd sell it as for the greater good and after suitable propaganda people would be all for it, until it came for them by which time it would be too late (to paraphrase Niemoller). Sounds dramatic but look at history. It's a firm no from me.

No, I didn't say I wanted them to mete out prison justice. The reptilian part of my brain wants him to be TERRIFIED of the prospect. As I imagine most prisoners in high security jails are - but even more so if you're a wheelchair user paralysed from the waist down.

I am sceptical about whether the likes of KC can ever be rehabilitated. But assuming there IS some possibility of even partial rehabilitation for the most heinous offenders, it would be too risky to ever parole let a triple murderer (am assuming here he's going to receive a full life term). He could still however live some kind of meaningful, purposeful life within the prison system. There are services set up to assist offenders in this - volunteering, education, etc.

I don't agree with the death penalty, although when I hear of the conditions inside say, US high security prisons, I'm not sure that the DP wouldn't be more humane.

He should have done a better job of it then. Total fuck up.

Unfortunately not enough prisoners will be sentenced to 50 years, more like 15-20

I don't understand why we can't sentence non violent criminals to hard graft community service, with the clause that is they don't do it, they are going to jail. So, people sweeping streets, painting over graffiti, and picking up litter. This should apply to all non violent criminals and those who have committed a crime from overseas should then be registered (finger print, iris scan, DNA) and put on a database and kept out of the country. Why don't they just boot out foreign criminals back to where they came from and told if they step foot here they will be jailed for 15 years?

This would leave prison cells free for those who are the worst offenders.

They would all claim some kind of mental health reason as to why they can’t do it, then make an action for discrimination for the consequences.

This is the society people wanted 🤷🏻‍♀️

Nobody advocated for that. But there are many cases where we know that they murdered someone. Oftentimes in public or caught on CCTV

This is happening now with the assisted dying bill. Some supporters explicitly state NHS costs as a reason to support it. It is disgusting.

PS to my previous post, I have now read about this man, I always have a look at the news headlines online and there it all was. i remembered the murders from last year, just not the murderer's name.

It really is quite horrible.

At the moment. We could, if we wanted, bring in an extra category.

How I agree with you! Some years ago there was a situation in a prison (I don’t remember the details), where the cleaning personnel hadn’t been in to fulfil their contract, and the prisoners were up in arms about food being left on the floor.

I don’t know about everyone, but most people clean up after themselves/their families - why shouldn’t the prisoners be required to do the same?

1. Prison is not "miserable".

1. Killers do not "suffer" with the knowledge of what they have done. Narcissism, low IQ or other pathologies mean they do not function like normal introspective people - if they did they would not have murdered in the first place.

1. Life is sacred. A murder, particularly brutal murders and those of children, requires society to recognise the gravity of this crime. It is sickening that Axel Shithead gets to spend the rest of his life playing Xbox while 3 little girls lie dead in the ground. That is not justice. That is trivialising their lives and the manner of their deaths. It is incredibly disturbing to really contemplate this. Visualise what he did and then consider that TODAY he is experiencing the same punishment as someone who committed insurance fraud, or posted something dodgy on social media. Mooching around his prison wing. Having lunch. Popping to the library. Reading a magazine. It is mind bending in its injustice.

1. We have technology these days where we can be 100% sure that certain people committed a crime. Where there is no risk to the innocent the death penalty should be in play. Certainly Axel and Clifford can be safely executed.

I would bring back the death penalty.
Killers choose to kill why pay to keep them in prisons for 30 plus years? They contribute nothing and continue to take.
I’ve had many pets who didn’t suffer one iota when they had to have that final injection from a vet. And that would be far more kindness than any murderers victim received. We need to focus on the victims who’ve suffered terror, pain, unbearable cruelty — murderers choose to do that.

But then this becomes torture and slavery. Would you rather this over the death penalty?

it’s a nice idea but how would you go about getting someone who doesn’t want to do something to do something? How would you get someone with severe personality disorders and violent tendencies to do all of these tasks?

obviously some prisoners are reasonable, some are kind, some would enjoy working. But lots won’t. So you either shut the door and walk away and let them kill each other (taking the decent ones with them) or you enforce labour (needs to be very strict and would end up being governed with physical force or very very dangerous for guards)

im not sure on my feelings on any of these topics btw. I feel for the victims that I would very much like to torture some of these people. But morally etc… who knows what is actually “right”.

1. Please don't compare LGB people to paedophiles.
2. Please don't peddle "minor attracted person" bullshit on a parenting website.