Anyone listened to this interesting diary of a ceo podcast, about how daycare is harming children ?

[GeorgiesCat]

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Just wondered your thoughts, I think what she's saying is very unpopular but also very true

Well, if anyone can point to any actual evidence that nurseries in the UK are causing an epidemic of mental health issues, I’d be fascinated to see it.

I'm not an expert, I'm just prepared to listen to somebody suggest that a thing may be a problem, even though it isn't easily fixable or cause discomfort.

It isn't quite the either/or choice that you seem to think it is. The mental wellbeing of children cannot easily be divorced from the mental wellbeing of their parents.

Unhappy mothers typically make for unhappy children. Having a SAHP who is miserable and frustrated by being at home is not in the best interests of a child. I know this from my own experience.

Of course we should look at high quality research about how to ensure that childcare settings offer the best possible care for children. Of course parents should be made aware of relevant, well-evidenced and unbiased research findings about the risks and benefits of different types of childcare so that they can make informed decisions about what is best for their families. So far, having read a lot of research on this subject, it seems that there is research to support just about any perspective on this matter.

But deliberately suggesting that women should feel guilty because they have chosen to use paid childcare, or because they have had no alternative but to use it? I have no fucking idea how anyone thinks that this might be in the best interests of children.

Of course parents should be made aware of relevant, well-evidenced and unbiased research findings about the risks and benefits of different types of childcare so that they can make informed decisions about what is best for their families. So far, having read a lot of research on this subject, it seems that there is research to support just about any perspective on this matter.

Yes, that's where I am on this. This should be widely studied at scale and discussed so that people can make informed decisions. It's not good enough to hope that this isn't the catalyst for widespread distress in children and young people.

Full time 5 days a week 9-5 nursery daycare from a young age has been shown decades ago to be detrimental

Part time care for toddlers and above doesn't seem to be so clear cut - positives and negatives and neutral

Surely if it were an established fact that FT nursery childcare was causing an epidemic of poor MH, men would be rushing to become SAHPs in their droves, rather than see harm come to the fruit of their loins? And if not, why not?

So, we can only accept that children are harmed by nursery care if men are willing to come to the party to fix it?

And it's not an established fact. Different experts and studies have come to wildly different conclusions.

I think children do better at home until 3 years old. That might be At home with a parent, grandparent or a childminder. From 3, children do benefit from nursery but not 5 days a week, 8am-6pm.

I've been a primary teacher for 25 years. Many of my current class (P2) are in school longer than me by attending breakfast club and then after-school club. It's too much if 5 days a week for a 6 year old. Again, a childminder would be far better provision.

DT’s went to full time nursery (didn’t want to use a childminder or nanny) from six months old - excellent facilities with 1:2 ratio for younger children. No grandparents living in the same country to help out and they had their own careers.
When they started school they went to breakfast and after school clubs five days a week - as did the majority of their classmates.

No one had any problems.

Depends on the quality of the nursery. We were on a waiting list from early in my pregnancy until they started at six months old (normal maternity leave then). Good places are very popular.

Now you can't possibly know that none of those children were able to adapt to that childcare setting in the same as your twins were able to and without consequence in their childhood, teens or onwards. That's a nonsense.

They are now in their mid 20’s - have completed Uni and in post grad jobs. I’m still in touch with their parents and DT’s with their friends

You're still in touch with all the parents and children who shared your children's nursery? I mean, just that statement alone suggests this wasn't your typical nursery setting.

@Parker231

do you equate completing uni and having post grad jobs as evidence that full-time nursery/breakfast clubs/after school clubs as being emotionally fulfilling? Genuine question as I think a lot of parents do see academic success aa evidence of not having suffered emotionally being apart from parents for long periods while very young

I think it's better to look at what drives long days in childcare than to look at the childcare itself.

We're both super lucky to have flexible jobs that are WFH. We've both compressed our hours, and share drop offs and pick ups so that our son has shorter "full" days in nursery 3 days per week.

I think that an entitlement for both parents for greater flexibility in the first three years of their children's lives would be a huge benefit that most employers could implement.

In my company it's completely standard from the admin up to the CEO to see calendars blocked out for school runs, and flex used in the evening. Whilst some might see that as a blurring of work and home, there's a zero tolerance approach to presenteeism - employees are EXPECTED to work to a schedule that suits their lives, and people don't take the piss.

We have happy, healthy (mentally, emotionally and physically) successful young adults - I couldn’t wish for more for them.

The problem is that a childminder is only one person with no backup. I used one for after school with DC1 and it was a nightmare. She took her kids on termtime holidays and although she did provide a backup, that backup was so bad that I was looking for something else entirely. Between poor backup provision and lack of reliability it was no good to us as full time working parents. When an after school club started up, it was an absolute godsend.

I've seen a few comments along these lines, but I've yet to see any compelling evidence that the children of SAHPs have better mental health than their peers who went to nursery. This certainly isn't the pattern that is reflected in the young people that we know.

It seems to me that some people desperately want to believe that the children of WOHMs will all be fucked up for life, but the evidence that I've seen doesn't appear to back that up. And neither does my lived experience.

I think it must be incredibly difficult to research this stuff. Among sahms there are women who engineered that outcome, women who were manoeuvred into that outcome and women who were never, through one difficulty or another, capable of working in the first place.

So just on one side of the dynamic, I imagine it is hard to work out if, in some sliding doors universe, these children would be better off or disadvantaged by their lack of exposure to centre-led care.

My estimation is that there are far more factors than we can possibly compute.

Breastfed?
Coslept?
Personality?
Genetics?
Introversion Vs extroversion?
Quality of care?
Home environment?
Trauma?
Time spent outside?
Screentime?

There were pre-existing differences in babies before any of my son's cohort went to childcare. I think genetics and personality play a much bigger role than we know of.

You can't simply say that one solution is better than another for an individual child.

I actually went for my second-favourite nursery on the grounds that it was much closer and allowed for more time with us, and a more relaxed morning and evening routine. Both of those things were more important to me than the marginal benefits he'd enjoy in the better nursery further away.

I haven't seen any evidence either, and the research that would be required to get the answer, if there is one, would not ever pass ethics.

In some areas there aren't childminders.

And unfortunately if parents are in jobs where they both work the same hours or there is only one adult in the household who works, then they have to rely on before and after school care.

DT’s loved after school club - extra time to play with their friends and the activities were excellent. They weren’t impressed if we collected them early!

@TheNinkyNonkyIsATardis how do you know the other nursery was "better"?

The nursery you chose was a actually "better" for your children for the reasons listed.

The CM and then nursery we chose for our DD was "best" for her due to the attitude and experience of the CM and nursery. My DD still spends random days in the school holiday with the CM. The CM actually had about a year where one day a week my DD was her only mindee.

I agree. Most parents choose their childcare very carefully, based on their own assessment of what is right for their child and for their family as a whole.

For us, the best option was a part time nanny in the mornings and DH and I both working flexibly to tag team the afternoons and evenings between us. The arrangement was perfect for us at that time, but other people will have different needs and priorities. Very few parents just bung their precious child into the easiest available option.