Can I ask about Russia?

[EarsUpTailUp]

The more I see about Trump, Vance and Zelenskyy, and Putin and Ukraine, the more I’m seeing comments crop up that Zelenskyy is the problem, that Putin “has it right”, and I’m so confused as to why. I’ve seen a couple of comments on MN about this, but they’re slammed down (understandably) before sharing any info.

I don’t believe it, but I’d like to know what information people are getting to give them this opinion.

I know a couple of people irl who are clear that they’re team Putin, but beyond spouting sound bites about Zelenskyy being an entertainer and a propagandist, how toxic Ukraine is wrt trafficking, and that Putin is misunderstood, I don’t understand where they’re coming from, and if there is clear evidence of their beliefs.

I can’t dictate how this thread goes, but I would like to understand where this other side is seen from, with links and evidence if possible, and would love this to be a civil conversation.

He does not see Ukraine as an independent nation, or ukrainians as separate people. He wants to resurrect the soviet union and/or russian empire, therefore he considers that he has all the rights to bring those lands under russian control. There is plenty of writings in russian press and media supporting this point of view. Also, russia as a protector of traditional values in the world of woke. In addition, he despises the president of Ukraine, not least because he made some sketches about his lover alina kabaeva when he was in entertainment business.
To his surprise, ukrainians resisted and most did not have any desire to join russia or welcome his troops, so currently it does look like pure revenge. He is talking about Nato borders, but since war started several countries have joined Nato and extended russia's borders with Nato significantly. For some reason he does not care about those borders and does not attack those countries, it is Ukraine (which is not a Nato member and realistically would not been allowed to join anyway) he is concerned about.
It is clearly an ideological and personal for him, dream of "make russia great again".

Putin has been leading a very effective propaganda campaign for years as he wants to divide the West.

It's argued that Brexit was his work as is Trump. There are some very powerful men who want more power and money.

They may have conflicting interests but the way they're going about it is the same. They control the media and are spreading propaganda that suits their interests.

People are parroting Putin regarding Ukraine.

Out of interest are these Putin lovers men or women? Just curious. I’ve known middle class women parrot whatever is flavour of the month to keep ‘elite’ positions, thinking it puts them on the superior moral stance.

It’s clear that the whole world has gone and is still going through a paradigm shift towards authoritarianism and all those who like bullying and power plays or sucking up to power are jumping on board in hope of keeping positions and lording it over the rest of us (typically men like this more than women, that’s why I asked). Also, best check, are these Brits or Americans?

As Maitri108 says, there’s also a hell of a lot of specific misinformation flying around. Once it gets started it literally flies around the planet before truth gets out of bed these days. Public distrust and the social corrosion of inequality are doing heavy lifting everywhere. Americans are busy telling themselves that they fund European welfare services for instance even though we all know there’s a diminishing pool of mugs working and paying tax for that, while new billionaires cream off the top.

I got this fascinating read through from the Equality Trust about the rise of the far right in Germany for instance and parallels here. https://equalitytrust.org.uk/news/blog/five-things-equality-activists-can-learn-from-the-german-election/

Thank you! This is exactly what I needed.

@WaryCrow both women, both radicalised in 2020. Online I notice more men taking this stance (or at least they have male names!).

In exactly the same way that people were persuaded that Jews were the problem 80 odd years ago

Putin has already killed people on British soil with novichok and polonium.

What else does he have to do to us to make people aware of what he is?

Really? You know people who are actually Team Putin! 🤨 For what potential gain?

To be honest it's pretty basic

Russia has invaded, raped, murdered, and razed towns to the ground.

Putin is the aggressor.

You've hit the nail on the head; it's radicalisation. The far right parties in Europe for example are pro Putin, anti EU and isolationist. Hungary is a good example of the direction we're all heading.

I wouldn’t bother being friends with these people tbh. God knows what else they are getting from the internet!

I'd say seeing Zelensky as the problem is a very uncommon view in the UK. Even the Daily Mail is outraged by Trump's behaviour. Who are these people? By 'radicalised in 2020' do you mean they're anti-vax conspiracy theorists?

It's becoming very obvious that Putin has been funding disinformation online for some years, causing Brexit and the rise of the far-right in places like Germany. Unfortunately many have fallen for the propaganda.

No idea. Maybe no gain at all, but a sense that we’re being lied to for some reason.

I work with one and the other is a school mother. Both well educated (one to PhD level) and have respected positions.

I don’t get it, but sometimes wonder if I’m missing some vital information if it’s so obvious to them.

Yes anti vax.
I think behaviour of media and government did drive a lot to cause distrust, but for some people it’s led to a complete collapse of trust altogether, to the point of thinking Trump is some sort of saviour and Putin’s an alright bloke.

I’m trying to understand it as they constantly twist conversations on to the subject. I find it difficult to believe that they’re so susceptible to propaganda, or that they believe the rest of the world has fallen for it.

I'm all for being calm and rational and analytical

there was none of that here at the weekend!

however, I literally do not know a single person who is pro Putin. I am surprised to hear that anyone is. Maybe I'm hopelessly naive and people wouldn't tell me.

Russias greatest strength is in its mis/disinformation campaigns.

Misinformation is often something with some truth, but is misunderstood / misrepresented

Disinfomation is entirely untrue

Russia combines both, and they also send out multiple conflicting versions. These are designed to confuse when you see a barrage of information or for one of them to reinforce an existing belief

It can look like Russian trolls are confused, when they keep switching direction

When you know something to be false - eg that Zelensky is to blame then if you keep being told the same thing then it’s hard to keep believing what you know to be true

The message coming out of the White House of the press conference is that it’s Zelenskys fault for not wanting the war to stop.
(If you haven’t seen it look for the full 40 minutes session)

Beforehand Trump was asking/demanding mineral rights and Zelensky was stating that he cannot commit to sign them all away and that he cannot go towards a ceasefire / peace without assurances on Ukraines future
All of a sudden it was stated that he was going to sign - which makes us wonder why
From the outset of the press conference he keeps stating that Ukraine needs assurances on its future - so that’s probably the basis on which he was going to sign
Instead of background negotiations he was ambushed and bombarded to sign off with no assurances

The narrative blames Zelensky for not surrendering his country, raped of natural resources from Russians on one side and Americans on the other side
All the blame for three years of war is pointed to Ukraine for not rolling over to Russia
Blame the victim

This is my belief also.

I glanced at a thread on a group from my home town in the midlands, and was amazed to see all these middle aged men called Dave and Ian posing with pints in their profile pictures and all saying ‘I’d trust Putin more than Kier Starmer!’, ‘At least Putin wants peace!’, etc. etc.

Bizarre but also v instructive – you see the exact identical lines repeated by all these disparate people who 5 years ago had zero opinion on Putin. I always assume it’s from the papers people read and the algorithms that target them – so maybe for e.g. people who follow Tommy Robinson or certain conspiracy theorists on facebook or youtube videos are more likely to be targeted as easily manipulated.

Do they tell you to do your own research if you challenge them?

Yes, it starts with chem trails, no moon landings, climate change denial, then anti vax, anti immigrant, getting drawn more and more into the rabbit hole. At each stage there is enough confirmation bias to draw you further in. The next thing is right wing propaganda and Trump/Musk/ Yaxley hero worship.
People will post clips of utter bollocks presented as fact, but with no evidence. They cite other cult members posts/ videos as evidence.
They post half truths, so twisted they are unrecognisable to fit their narrative, the goal to make you agree with their viewpoint.
At any stage the phrase do your own research is used, with the white house footage, it's phrased as "watch the whole video" spoiler- Trump still looks like a dick.

Russian bots and people getting sucked into Russian backed propaganda on YouTube, X, Truth, etc.

Yes they do, particularly Ms PhD!

I try to look at things with an open mind, I don’t want to miss things because my bias is getting in the way, and that usually stands me in good stead and means I trust my opinions.

With all the Putin-love I feel like I’m missing something as I can find no reliable evidence that I trust, but it makes me wonder why my incredibly clever work colleague has fallen for it. Not only that but tries to make out I’m a bit stupid for not getting it.

She’s anti vax, careful about immigration, thinks chemtrails are a thing, thought the fog after Christmas was evidence of weather manipulation, yet she’s ridiculously clever. It doesn’t make sense.

After seeing the awful interview she was aghast at Zelenskyy threatening USA - I watched that particular part several times and still can’t see a threat.

As reported by The Guardian at the beginning of the war: when the Soviets brought the nukes to Cuba and Americans protested, the Soviets withdrew. Why did the Americans believed they would get away with setting their military bases so close to the Russian borders? The answer: because they are Americans

Also, read The Most Expensive Psychotherapy in History by The Guardian. BTW, The Guardian is the only the major UK newspaper that it's owned by a rich white man

You need new friends.

She’s biased. Simple as that. Given the collection of causes she’s taken on, sounds like she’s also absorbing certain media. Has she gone down the YouTube conspiracy theory rabbit hole?

Some people are intelligent but very gullible. They don't fact check.