Can I ask about Russia?

[EarsUpTailUp]

The more I see about Trump, Vance and Zelenskyy, and Putin and Ukraine, the more I’m seeing comments crop up that Zelenskyy is the problem, that Putin “has it right”, and I’m so confused as to why. I’ve seen a couple of comments on MN about this, but they’re slammed down (understandably) before sharing any info.

I don’t believe it, but I’d like to know what information people are getting to give them this opinion.

I know a couple of people irl who are clear that they’re team Putin, but beyond spouting sound bites about Zelenskyy being an entertainer and a propagandist, how toxic Ukraine is wrt trafficking, and that Putin is misunderstood, I don’t understand where they’re coming from, and if there is clear evidence of their beliefs.

I can’t dictate how this thread goes, but I would like to understand where this other side is seen from, with links and evidence if possible, and would love this to be a civil conversation.

No one is talking about US imperialisation in this thread because it is nothing to do with the Russian invasion of Ukraine. It’s Russian aggression and Russian imperialism

The reason you cannot find the Blinkden speech is because it was not a speech. The element taken out of context is a few seconds of a wider answer to a question

(Question at about 42 minutes and that part of his answer at about 45 minutes)

He puts context on the ‘America first’ and ‘ordinary people’s local issues’ arguments vs Foreign Relations which was the event he was at

He references that Trump states other NATO members have to do more, and points out that in the case of Ukraine the US have supported in the region $100bn but partners exceeded $150bn (Or in other words - partners are doing more)
He then drops in that the $100bn is being spent in the US which means US jobs and is a context to the “ordinary people issues”

He does not state that the Ukraine war is about selling US weapons

My point is we should call imperialism out whether it's Russian or American or Chinese.

To Tommika's first post: Putin tried joining NATO club. Then he discovered it was all for show. NATO had no intention of inviting Russia in.

Putin took over the Crimea once the Americans tried to set up their naval bases there. I got this info from an English guy who came to survey our house purchase in November 2021. His son is married to a Ukrainian woman.

Putin did apply a lot of pressure for Sweden and Finland not to join NATO via Hungary and Turkey.

We are not making this world a better place by calling one person evil and another one a good guy. The reality is more nuanced.

For a very long time America wanted to be the top dog. Some call it leadership. Too bad, other countries are up and coming and their are using a leaf from the American book.

We should call imperialism out whenever we see it. Trump wants to take over Panama, Greenland and Canada. I haven't heard him being called evil. He just got an invite for the state visit from King Charles! Wow.

If this isn't a hypocrisy I don't know what is

Putin took over the Crimea once the Americans tried to set up their naval bases there. I got this info from an English guy who came to survey our house purchase in November 2021. His son is married to a Ukrainian woman.

This is exactly the kind of disingenuous rhetoric that is ill-informed, and misrepresents the true situation. Crimea has been the locus of military and industrial conflict and Russian imperial ambitions for centuries, long before any American naval bases. In fact, long pre-dating America!

But you wouldn’t know that if you just got all your info fourth or fifth hand hearsay from a random guy whose son married a Ukrainian woman, etc. etc.

You could start by looking up a history of Crimea, to begin with…

Whataboutery is also a tool of the disinformation cohort.

We should call imperialism out whenever we see it. Trump wants to take over Panama, Greenland and Canada. I haven't heard him being called evil.

You haven’t heard Trump being called evil? Where have you been, under a rock since 2016?

Well the same could be applied to Cuba, America didn't like Russian influence right on their border.

Ukraine can decide to be friends with the USA but as Kissinger said:
"It's dangerous to be an enemy of the United States but to be a friend is deadly".

Where does it leave Ukraine if they lose interest in their proxy war.

Can you please quote a mainstream media outlet calling Trump evil? I don't do conspiracy websites

Please don't tell me that Wikipedia is also a tool of the Russian propaganda.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea

You think trolls don't edit Wikipedia @InNeedofAdvice1234?🙄

Trump is an oligarch. Putin is an oligarch. Trump has more in common with Putin. He values profit above people.

This is all you need to know.

Rumours are that Putin 'owns' Trump having bailed him out in the past. This may or may not be bollocks but it probably reflects the above either way anyway.

Social media barons are oligarchs.

They fall in with other oligarchs. Because they are personally better for them

The awareness is that the alternative to oligarchy is currently a dismantling of oligarchy for 'the people' (aka soft socialism not that full on shit but still pretty shit for the interests of oligarchs.)

It's all about tax. It not about taxing the £100,000 - £200,000 per year band either despite the bollocks you read. That's not Oligarchy. That's obligarchs covering their arses.

Did you read there about how Russia has been continually trying to invade and annex Crimea for centuries? Do you know why we fought in the Crimean War? Do you know any history of the Russian Empire and the USSR? Russia’s imperial ambitions in Crimea go back way, way before any US involvement. NATO is just a pretext.

Most of the Wikipedia article corresponds to what I know from English sources.

I am not saying Putin was right to invade and take over. However I don't think the Americans had any business setting up their navy bases there.
Live and let live has long been a sensible policy.

Now Putin and Trump are best buddies and Europe is scrambling to sign £660 billion mutual defence pact.

You couldn't make it up.

@InNeedofAdvice1234
NATO does not invite any one to join
Putin stated that he wanted to be invited, and was told that nobody gets invited
He did not apply to join (however he did have Russia participating alongside NATO in the Baltics and joined NATO initiatives)

Putin invaded Crimea in 2014
There are no US naval bases in Ukraine nor Crimea - the nearest thing to that is US spend on development of Ukrainian ports enabling the ability for US naval ships in the Black Sea to dock —— in 2019
So Putin went back in time 5 years for that

Please advise on what section of the Crimea wiki page shows the US naval bases there

US Naval bases in Crimea? What weird side-tracking disinformation is this.

Shock as revelation that Putin lies.

This is the man who made it a criminal offence in Russia to say there was a war in Ukraine. Despite there now being international diplomatic efforts with Putin personally to errrr end the war in Ukraine that he's legally not allowed to mention because there is no war in Ukraine...

Not to diminish Russian imperialism, but we fought in the Crimean War because it interfered with British imperialistic interests. This, obviously, has nothing to do with the current situation, but I think it's still worth pointing out.

Where does it leave Ukraine if they lose interest in their proxy war

Oh please. Ffs

But that’s the entire point. Russian politics is continuous with longstanding imperialist aims that go back to the actual Russian Empire. Putin isn’t trying to re-annex all the bits of the former Russian Empire and USSR because of anything NATO has done in the last few years. Look up what Stalin and Kruschev did with Crimea. Putin’s way more concerned with that than with America or the EU.

@SomewhereinSuberbia

The US not liking Russian influence right on their border.
A goss understatement, ignorance of history, trying to rewrite history....hmmm, which is it?

FYI The Soviet Union (now Russia) secretly installed missiles in Cuba to attack the US.

Whose proxy war is the Russian invasion of Ukraine? p