Can I ask about Russia?

[EarsUpTailUp]

The more I see about Trump, Vance and Zelenskyy, and Putin and Ukraine, the more I’m seeing comments crop up that Zelenskyy is the problem, that Putin “has it right”, and I’m so confused as to why. I’ve seen a couple of comments on MN about this, but they’re slammed down (understandably) before sharing any info.

I don’t believe it, but I’d like to know what information people are getting to give them this opinion.

I know a couple of people irl who are clear that they’re team Putin, but beyond spouting sound bites about Zelenskyy being an entertainer and a propagandist, how toxic Ukraine is wrt trafficking, and that Putin is misunderstood, I don’t understand where they’re coming from, and if there is clear evidence of their beliefs.

I can’t dictate how this thread goes, but I would like to understand where this other side is seen from, with links and evidence if possible, and would love this to be a civil conversation.

There’s the victory article posted in error, which states that Ukraine had been restored to Russia

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20220226051154/ria.ru/20220226/rossiya-1775162336.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://web.archive.org/web/20220226051154/ria.ru/20220226/rossiya-1775162336.html

Before that he announced the non existence of Ukraine and that it is Russia

http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181

It’s not about NATO, Putin regards Ukraine as part of Russia and more generally speaking is aggressive and expansionist.

Oops!

Reading Bob Woodward's book War atm. This extract was interesting about Putin's obsession with Ukraine.

Why do you think any country has the right to dictate what alliances neighbouring sovereign countries decide to make? Russia doesn’t have the right to say all the countries around its borders are there to act as buffers to other treaty alliances.

NATO only exists to provide security against Russian threats. The entire point of NATO was to provide a counterweight to Russian and ex-Soviet alliances and aggression. It’s precisely because Russia is aggressive and expansionist that countries on its borders want to join NATO. And why shouldn’t they? If your neighbour wants to annex your country, why wouldn’t you want to join the opposite alliance for security?

Blaming NATO for Russian militarist and expansionist ambitions is frankly daft. Putin has been doing this kind of thing for decades now.

A few on my Facebook are. These are disgruntled Labour supporters who hate Starmer and supported Corbyn. Also voted Brexit but apparently regretted it.
Now support Trump and I imagine are being indoctrinated via Reform Ltd.

It's pure 1984!

Lol at 9000 years ago, but yes, I suppose he's right. The modern USA is barely 300 years old. In terms of European history 300 years is a mere blip.

I still see people I didn't think of as stupid sharing posts such as the first ten people to like and share will get £500, or Tesco are giving away some prize to everyone who goes there between 3 and 4 today. Or immensely prejudiced and obviously untrue "immigrants get 10k a week, a new iphone and an exemption from UK law" type posts from "Britun is the bestest" type groups.

That's why I rarely add work colleagues to Facebook. Cousins are bad enough but imagine working with people knowing the inner "workings" of their head are as bad as you think.

@DrCoconut
Not only do they lap it up over the “Britain is bested”, but when the underlying overseas page history (usually a hacked & renamed group) - there are those who are very happy in the knowledge that it’s a troll page designed to stir them up ….

(for context a screenshot is supposed to be attached, but I’ve just had the pop up that “your images are under review” ….. I assume due to my earlier post having been misinterpreted and reported as a Russian troll)

Anyone can post here, including 9 to 5 professional trolls from Moscovy

I must admit that it’s bit suspect that so many contrarian Putineers seem to be on Mumsnet at the moment. Middle-aged mums are not notorious for being the ideal audience for militarist imperialism.

There's a massive disinformation machine at work @EarsUpTailUp. Powered by bots and trolls.

If you were to look at the posts on Mnet you'd think opinions were kinda equally split. The polls tell a different, more realistic story.

Yes, the majority of it is pro-Russian propaganda.

Russia/Iran/N Korea/China seek to generally destabilize the west and infiltrate all public forums with a variety of posting styles ranging from "innocent" questions; statements that outright condemn; split opinions
ie I support Ukraine but; and all are designed to garner support for Russia in some way.
This isn't new. When the recent US election was on there were the same types of posts and a lot alongs the lines of, "I'm a Dem, but I just can't support Harris because....".

If I can add: call it out and if you think it's propaganda or bot then report it. Don't waste your time in debate.

👏💯

Yes and ditto the oft-repeated line about him being ‘paranoid’.

There are definitely Russian trolls on here.

This OP was definitely ‘interesting’

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5284694-aibu-to-not-want-to-go-to-war?page=21&reply=142651285

Why is no one here talking about American imperialism?

I still remember the speech Amercian Sectretary of State Anthony Blinken made a couple of years ago. It was reported in The Guardian, not some Russian website or a YouTube channel. (Disclosure: I do not read Russian websites or follow anything beyond mainstean media. I do subscribe to The Guardian because it is the only major UK newspaper not owned by a rich white man).

Going back to Anthony Blinken... He said, the Ukranian war was supporting the US industry in 48 states. I tried looking for that speech so I could report the direct quote. I cannot find it easily and I don't have the time to read all his speeches. However, I clearly remember it being reported in The Guardian, the direct quotation by the American Secretary of State

I showed it to an English colleague asking her "Is it even legal to say that using American bombs to kill people is good for American manufacturing?". She shrugged off her shoulders and still thinks that Putin is evil and Americans are defenders of the free world.

This hypocrisy stinks and a lot of the Global South are not buying it.

@InNeedofAdvice1234

I’m more concerned about the US president being a Russian asset

But it’s normal for dictators to be paranoid! When you rule by fear, you are hated and at risk of being assassinated. People also don’t dare to be honest with you, so they lie. Dictators don’t know who they can trust, hence the paranoia.

Yes, no doubt, however I don’t think this is the motivation for annexing Ukraine.

The aggressive invasion of Ukraine is underpinned by imperialism and the belief that Ukraine belongs to Russia – not fretting about NATO.

In response to Kungfoofighting in relation to the current American President potentially being the Russian asset...

I am not excluding this possibility. Saying this.... two can play this game. The American have installed plenty of puppet heads of state. Politics is a very dirty game. Have you watched The Good Shepherd movie? (link to follow).

A cynic in me thinks the American elite just wanted to test their weapons in real life and get rid of their old stock in process (at the expense of ordinary taxpayers, of course).

Personally I think President Zelensky was very naive to think in February 2022 that the Americans won't do the runner once the going gets tough. Like they did in Afghanistan in August 2021

All of this is very sad. Here's the link to the film I mentioned earlier
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TheGood_Shepherd(film)