Can I ask about Russia?

[EarsUpTailUp]

The more I see about Trump, Vance and Zelenskyy, and Putin and Ukraine, the more I’m seeing comments crop up that Zelenskyy is the problem, that Putin “has it right”, and I’m so confused as to why. I’ve seen a couple of comments on MN about this, but they’re slammed down (understandably) before sharing any info.

I don’t believe it, but I’d like to know what information people are getting to give them this opinion.

I know a couple of people irl who are clear that they’re team Putin, but beyond spouting sound bites about Zelenskyy being an entertainer and a propagandist, how toxic Ukraine is wrt trafficking, and that Putin is misunderstood, I don’t understand where they’re coming from, and if there is clear evidence of their beliefs.

I can’t dictate how this thread goes, but I would like to understand where this other side is seen from, with links and evidence if possible, and would love this to be a civil conversation.

Most likely due to length and a degree of sarcasm, if you lost track (eg I said ‘President —— and various conflicting propoganda pieces are directed at Zelensky, but I was referencing but not naming Yanukovych and referring back to the 2014 invasion rather than the latest 2022 edition)

By just saying ‘president’ it was not explicit on who

I’m not particularly friends with them.
Work colleague is someone I’ve worked with for a few years, school mum is someone I chat to as our dc are friends.

Work colleague is constantly on Twitter.

Have you looked at Dave and Ian's profiles? If they have their profiles locked down except for regular cover photo changes and few/ no friends, I'd say they're more likely to be Dimitri and Igor.

The narrative blames Zelensky for not surrendering his country, raped of natural resources from Russians on one side and Americans on the other side
All the blame for three years of war is pointed to Ukraine for not rolling over to Russia
Blame the victim
I think sometimes people who declare themselves pacifist can end up ' victim blaming' because, admirable as a belief in pacifism is, wars start when someone defends their land from an aggressor. If Putin went into Ukraine and Ukraine rolled over there would be no war ( no Ukraine either, but no war). So how do you square being anti war with the fact that sometimes humanity throws up people who are murderous tyrants who want to invade other countries? I'm sure there is an answer, but if you are a bit of a cod pacifist, it must be the victims fault for provoking a war in some way.

Good point on being a pacifist.

Its not black and white - the stupid argument (or the argument against black/white) is when someone confronts a pacifist to say “but what if they were attacking your loved ones” and then saying you have proven they aren’t a pacifist because there’s a point that you would react

There are many ‘practical’ pacifists/conciencious objectors who have participated in war - volunteering as medics etc

I'd add Red Notice on corruption in Russia and how it is run by a mafia.

Those views are pretty common in the pubs I frequent, plenty of Dave's but no Dimitri's.

I assume it’s the same people who liked Boris Johnson because he seemed like a ‘lad’. Simpletons.

Would I be wrong to assume that they might also be Reform voters?

I'm not British, but from an ex-soviet-occupied country. You'd think my countrymen/women who know firsthand all there is to know about being under russia's boot, would vehemently oppose putin. And yet, we do have our own fifth column, regrettably.

I can't stand to listen to their nonsensical gibberish and blatant lies, but from what I've heard it usually goes something like this (all below is categorically NOT my own opinion, but theirs):

The West is woke, gay, perverted. They don't know what a woman/man is, men are pussies wearing skirts, women are jumped up harridan feminists, ugly, fat and unfeminine, who forgot their duties to their families and their husbands. Homosexuals reign supreme, converting 'our children' to their pedophilic perverted practises, children's services and schools are in cahoots with them, tearing apart decent families and giving the children to gays. Only russia is a beacon of traditional values in this pervy world, yadda yadda. You get the point.

Furthermore, blacks, muslims, any other non-white people are also a problem. They should fuck off where they came from (doesn't matter if they were born in say the UK). Only in putin's russia... You get the point.

Soviet union was a golden age. Everyone had jobs, everyone were given housing, everyone knew where they stood, life was good (that's partly true, but a VERY simplistic and one sided view at the things). There were no gays, no drugs, no pedophiles, women were women, men were men, kids obeyed their parents, etc. putin will bring all that golden age back.

And lots of other shit like that. I hope I don't need to say that all the above is total and complete bullshit, obviously. But there are quite significant number of (totally idiotic) people who genuinely believe that.

Maybe somewhat similar with Farage/Robinson supporters. Good ol Nige will come, wave his wand, get rid of all the blacks, browns and EEs stealing our jobs and corrupting our towns, and all will be as good as in the 90s (or whatever time period works for you), Union Jacks in the air, blue passports and traditional British values and way of life returned.

Russian troll farms are very good at their jobs, is the answer.

The only person I know who does not give a shit about Ukraine is a) a card-carrying member of the Italian fascist party b) pro-Trump, c) in the military. He has beliefs that go back a long way to the second world war, when they see that Europe screwed over Italy, so a deep nationalism, a love of Mussolini and "strong men" in general. Add in the general military right wing biases and that is where you get the kind of person who follows whatever the military leaders like Vance and Putin say. that is your classic European right winger.

The military and ex-military types I know here in the UK are very anti-Putin. My husband's in a WhatsApp that explodes at times. They've been saying for years that we are woefully ill-equipped and underpowered. These are older men, once involved in the Cold War defence of Europe. They have not forgotten. They've known his type for a long time.

It makes sense that miliatry types in the UK are against Putin traditonally, because again it goes right back to when we were fighting against Russia in WW2. However, America muddies these waters, because the UK is traditionally anti-Russia but pro-America. When an American president therefore decides to side with Russia, you get this kind of "double-think", which can be justified if you do the right kind of mental gymnastics.

British troops were not fighting Soviets in WW2. Did you mean the Cold War?

Mainly farmers and not so well off old people. Both with very valid reasons to hate Kier.

Tory area but moving more towards Reform from the chat I hear.

Over the last twenty years contrarianism became a fashion - most obvious with Brexit, but even very educated people can be seduced into a kind of “contrarianism is the truth” mindset. They ought not to be as credulous as the ill-informed, but they get into a headspace where they think it’s somehow clever to take a view against the mainstream “liberal” view. I guess it came from the era of Blair/Brown/Coalition/Clegg/Cameron when we didn’t have too much to worry about, politically, so you could look “in the know” by taking a contrarian position, without any real cost.

Except that ended up producing Brexit (I know a fair number of educated people sucked into the “Lexit”/Corbyn mindset because they wanted to look a bit different and cool, but never expected it to actually happen).

Now contrarianism has become a habit amongst a slice of the population who like to think taking the “opposite” view to the mainstream is clever, when in fact it just lands them in the same place as the genuinely gullible and stupid.

Putin is a genuinely nasty and all -round bad dictator. He’s ex-KGB with no conscience about killing people and having them killed - either quite directly, or “falling out of a window” style. He murders his political opponents and has no compunction about war. The stuff about NATO is made up justifications for Russian aggression, and anyone falling for it needs their head examining to be honest. Though if people like posing as contrarians you might as well just ignore them. You’ll notice they aren’t volunteering to go and live in Russia, if they like it so much.

I am not a troll. I would like to know how the British citizens would feel if the Government of the Republic of Ireland invited the Chinese to set up their military bases on Irish territory.

Putin had been signalling to the West for a very long time. It's a shame no one was listening

What US, UK or NATO bases were being set up in Ukraine in 2014?

Putin has never said he ever wants all of Ukraine, never mind Poland or anywhere else in Europe

Prove me wrong

Putin being the aggressor does not mean Zelensky is a saint. If what's being said about Zelensky is true that doesn't mean what putin is doing is any less heinous.

But it's not about either of them as individuals anyway. It's about what is being done to the people of Ukraine and what's yet to happen both to the Ukrainians and the rest of us if putin isn't stopped.

Most of the bullshit rumours about Zelensky are just that, bollocks.

As long as Trumps plans for peace involve Putin being kicked out of Ukraine. Sadly, as a treacherous, cowardly slime piece of scum, Trump would rather betray his allies that facedown an enemy.

Actions speak louder than words. History teaches lessons the wise learn.

I have read Putin's version of the history of Ukraine even if you havent - “I am confident that true sovereignty of Ukraine is possible only in partnership with Russia. For we are one people,”

"Therefore, modern Ukraine is entirely the product of the Soviet era."

Its one long excuse to invade. Its required reading for all Russian military personnel.

www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/putin-admits-ukraine-invasion-is-an-imperial-war-to-return-russian-land/