I am a narcissist

[ohyesido]

I am. But I'm not a horrible person.

I lack empathy but I've learned that it isn't nice to manipulate people.

Yet I still do, only in such a way that no one can ever really accuse me of it. Because I twist my words to indicate that I have everyone's best interests at heart.

Everything I do is calculated to ensure I get my own way while maintaining a facade of good intentions

Can anyone relate?

I have a close relative who has a personality disorder. They would express remorse for their actions, then do the same things again (this went on in repeat, until I placed them firmly at arms length). I'm still in this person's company now and again due to family ties, and I still feel guilt on occasion that I've put them out of my life.
This thread has given me clarity though that it's not real, that the sorrow they express isn't authentic. So whilst it's not comfortable reading, I'm grateful for the honesty I've read. I'll bear it in mind when the post family get together guilt creeps in (because my life is infinitely better without them in it!).

You are wrong
I love my children so your choice is to not believe me or not believe I am a Sociopath.
I don't care about you or anyone else, thats not to say I wouldn't help you if you were in trouble, I do help some people - I gave my gloves to a homeless woman a couple of weeks ago for example and I do lots of charity work but do I feel emotions like most people? I don't think so
As for being convinced I will definitely damage my DC what would you like me to do about that? I work very hard not to, unlike many "normal" parents.
I am not dangerous, I am just different.
Just like most parents I do my best to raise decent happy humans and by all accounts it seems to be going well so far.

@SassK - do not feel guilt. Narcissists and sociopaths do not care and this is why their actions often do not match their words. They learn that they are different and then spend a huge amount of time trying to ape language and behaviour. This disconnect is actually why they are likely to traumatise people, particularly children.

Narcissists and sociopaths cannot learn the "I should not do that as it will hurt someone's feelings". They can understand "I shouldn't do this as it will make me look bad". However, they often conclude that there may be an upside to them and they are prepared to manipulate the perceptions of those closest to them so they get their needs met.

There is something fundamental missing in such people; you cannot fix it. Carry on with your good boundaries.

You think.

That was at

@Hoppinggreen

You've described them to a tee!

I am very interested why you think you know me and people like me far better than I do.
I can and have learned that if I do things it will hurt someones feelings but I make the choice whether I want to hurt someone or not. It might depend on my mood or if hurting someone will cause an issue for me. I don't actually like to traumatise people, I just don't care if I do a lot of the time but most certainly not my children.
I would agree to have boundaries though, I know that it can be traumatising to deal with Narcs and Sociopaths without them. I think its how I survived my father much better than my brother did

I’m really fascinated by you. I know you say you are diagnosed sociopath, but what I’m reading feels more (to me, in my opinion) like neurodiversity. Did I read rightly that you said you feel like sociopathy is a neurodiversity? (I’m sorry I can’t be bothered to scroll back up and check.)

You definitely aren’t coming across as a narcissist (again in my opinion having been raised by a raging narcissist).

@bombastix, you're persistently expressing something like hatred towards everyone with psychopathy or high narcissism. These are neurological disorders/differences. Would you vilify everyone with another 'mental wiring' condition such as autism, for instance, or schizophrenia?

Bigotry is bigotry.

Just because you don’t have the visceral response to people that others have, doesn’t mean you want to harm them.

You may be safe to be around because you like a reasonably tidy, socially acceptable life. If the things that you prioritise and organise around are reasonably beneficial to society as a whole, then you’d generally do ok. As long as no one disrupts you. I wouldn’t want to see that play out.

@bombastix would you say Narcissists can think they love someone? My DM organises around herself, we would get birthday presents that she wanted/had to provide anyway (school uniform, for example). She came first always. We had to fit in around the edges.
She’s pretty unhappy these days- she sees others’ close families and wants it but has no idea why it isn’t working for her. She simply doesn’t understand relationship dynamics. She thinks we’re all awful for refusing to play along- drop everything the moment she demands it, disappear when we aren’t needed.

She doesn’t love us, I don’t think, we’re supporting cast that doesn’t support well enough. But I assume she thinks she does, as she knows no better.

That is your judgment. My point is that such people are very manipulative and do a lot of damage. Is that hatred? No. It is a corrective. Most NPD is formed in childhood as a reaction to abuse or serious neglect. The person with the actual disorder is very damaged. But saying they make reasonable parents is wrong. They make terrible parents.

Having also been raised by a pair of raging Narcissists you have my sympathy (yes I can do that)
You are right, I DO consider it a type of ND in that its not a choice so the dramatic "you are going to f up your kids" nonsense pisses me off a bit. They are 19 and 15 so a bit late to send back now.
I think the best way to describe it is that while for most people their default setting is "good" mine is "bad" but I know some of my instinctive behaviour isn't acceptable so I make the conscious decision to act against my first instincts.
I suppose in some ways it could be argued that makes me a better person that someone who just acts on their good instincts. I do enjoy being a fully functioning member of society. Feelings were weapons growing up and kindness was a weakness so it was better not to display either. I was baffled when I met DH's family and they all seemed to actually like eachother
DH jokes that come The Apocolypse I would be great to have around because I would be completely ruthless and detroy anyone or anything that threatened the 4 of us with no hesitation.

Thank you
@bombastix constant assertions that I can't possibly love my kids is saying that someone who is ND can't and thats quite offensive

Except it's not bigotry. Nor is it hate. It's a frank description of how manipulation is imposed. It's an uncomfortable truth. Urging people in the slipstream to protect their peace is an important message.

You may be safe to be around because you like a reasonably tidy, socially acceptable life. If the things that you prioritise and organise around are reasonably beneficial to society as a whole, then you’d generally do ok. As long as no one disrupts you. I wouldn’t want to see that play out.

Spot on but if somebody crosses me or my DC I have to really control myself. I have done a couple of things in revenge that were quite bad if I am honest but not as bad as the things I actually wanted to.

Except they are actually wrong with some of their descriptions and assertions and seem to think that reading a book or whatever is the same as being inside my head and the head of other people like me.
I would agree that its a good idea to be cautious around Narcs and Sociopaths, they (we) are capable of causing immense harm if we want to- or if we aren't motivated not to I should say. Maybe I should do an AMA masterclass on how to protect yourself from "us" but I am sure it would descend into abuse as people cant handle the truth (to quote Jack Nicholson)

@myplace - that is a really interesting question as to why narcissists want to show an appearance of love. I think it comes down to wanting the benefits of love and company.

If we think of them as hollow people, then the narcissist is desperate for company. They need it. All the time, they spend it listening to people to learn ways to be, ways to manipulate. Sometimes they can actually do nice things, but the point will be that this is done for them. Sometimes they like a lot of family to turn up and bring gifts. They are thus important.

There will be a bit later a characteristic swipe to show they are superior such as giving a terrible or insulting gift. People find it baffling because it is. But narcissists are damaged people. If you understand their limits, then they get easier to handle. You should expect literally nothing from them.

The issue is that the above is a sophisticated idea which adults can just about handle. No child can, which is why they are so damaging to them.

I wanted to use a react, but your message is sufficiently complex none of them was suitable! Can’t thank/laugh/agree or live!
I’m smiling wryly about you choosing a lesser revenge than the full on one you instinctively fancied!

What about integrity? Do you disappoint yourself if you don’t meet your own standards/expectations? Or is convenience/pragmatism always a winner?

And would you mind sharing how you were diagnosed? Generally people only get that far when things are going badly.

I think it’s important to recognise that just people with the same neurodiversity can be very different from each other, so will sociopaths, narcissists etc.

The person whose priority is an efficient Train network is going to be different to be around from one whose priority is personal success. (Obviously that’s a very limited metaphor).

Integrity is an interesting one, people would say I am pretty moral BUT I can happily set my own "rules" so something is VERY wrong unless I decide its not. If I am losing I just move the goalposts
A friend (yes I have them) is a trained Counsellor and she suggested it as I was working through some childhood things with her. It was at DH's suggestion as I thought everyones head worked like mine and/or if it didn't then they were the ones with the issue. I was special and everyone who wasn't like me was to be pitied more than anything else. I was actually fine as I was but I like to keep DH happy as it makes my life easier if he is. I have never told DH in fact, he just thinks I had a messed up childhood
I then saw a GP and a Psych who both agreed but I have never sought treatment as I don't need it in my opinion.

I've read no end of threads on here from autistic women who find their kids too emotional, clingy, boring, unpredictable, etc, and can't bear them at times. Respondents, rightly, sympathise. They don't pile in with repeated assertions that these women are unfit parents who will inevitably damage their children.

On one thread that stuck in my mind, the advice was actually to be more 'manipulative'. The OP was unable to relate appropriately to her primary-age daughter; people coached her so that the child wouldn't feel emotionally deprived. How is this desirable behaviour for one neuro-divergent woman, yet evil in another?

Thank you kindly for your sympathy!

With regards to parenting…If you can see yourself, and I mean really see yourself (like you do), and take that out of the dynamic by acting against those instincts, you are less likely to pass on your own shit to them.

So anyone who is thinking you are a bad parent, just because you are identifying as a sociopath is wrong in my opinion.

I think your self-awareness and intellect is a reaction to the trauma of being raised by those raging narcissists, would you agree?

When it's someone close that you love and care for (like a sibling) it requires an epiphany to disentangle yourself. I see all the same manipulated behaviours/attitudes in my aforementioned relative's husband and daughter that were mine prior to realisation. Her husband is a lost cause, however I live in hope that her daughter (whom I love a great deal) might one day disentangle herself.

Rereading the OP has reminded me of the game Traitors. I watched it properly this year, for the first time.

There was a chap with ASD who was making uber rational choices within the rules of the game, and was a bit stunned when everyone had a go at him and voted him off for being deceptive.

It’s a bit like life is a big game of Traitors, with some people playing purely for success and able to make calculated decisions while others are more swayed by emotions and integrity. But in real life, only some of us are playing it as a game. The rest assume it’s all real.

"Narcissists and sociopaths cannot learn the "I should not do that as it will hurt someone's feelings""

I would correct that.

You absolutely can understand that something would hurt someone's feelings. You absolutely can understand that the expectation from others is that you wouldn't do it for that reason.

You just don't care that it would hurt their feelings. Not hurting their feelings for their sake isn't what matters.

The reason you wouldn't do it is if doing it would have a negative effect on you but you would understand that you were supposed to not do it because it would hurt the person and if you were asked about it, you'd give the reason as protecting their feelings. It's just that wouldn't be the truth.