Beavers - have we just been unlucky, or is this standard?

[KatiMaus]

Hi all - looking for some advice from those that understand this stuff better than me!

DS (6) started at Beavers in January and initially was quite excited at the prospect, but quickly lost interest. I couldn't get to the bottom of why, all he said was that the other kids were 'messing about'.

Last night, I went along as a parent volunteer (they have a rota for this, so it was the first time I'd experienced it). It was absolutely wild. Total lack of control of the kids, instructions not being followed, leader was visibly exasperated and I noticed DS and another boy wincing on a few occasions at the noise.

Games were ruined by kids not following the rules and there was a lot of rough behaviour (pushing each other).

DS is a VERY sensitive boy and is now saying that he doesn't want to go back.

Should I encourage him to persevere with it? Is it likely to get better once they reach Cubs age and calm down a bit? I love the idea of Beavers/scouts etc and the opportunities it will ultimately bring for him, but after what I saw last night, I can't say I blame him for wanting to give it up!

Wise folks of MN - is it always pretty chaotic, or have we got unlucky with this particular group?

I have his name on a waiting list for a group closer to home, too, but have been told that this could take another year or so until he is at the top of the list. Don't know whether to try another group, or accept that this type of thing is not right for DS. 🙁

Any advice gratefully received - thanks!

My DH is an assistant leader in a Cub pack and my kids have all gone though Beavers/Cubs/Explorers. My youngest is part of the Cub pack that my DH helps with. This group he is involved with is the most chaotic we have known since my older kids started. There are some lovely kids who want to be involved and are relatively sensible and respectful but there also seems to be a high number of kids who aren't able to listen to instructions, cry/tantrum when they lose a game, and fight with other children constantly. There also seems to be a high number of children who seem to have SEN - although the parents have not disclosed this, some children show very visible signs of ADHD/ASC and could really do with a parent staying with them. My DH finds it much better to get them all outside if possible. My son struggles with it all as he's very reserved/quiet!

There also seems to be a high number of children who seem to have SEN - although the parents have not disclosed this, some children show very visible signs of ADHD/ASC

I think this is a good point. I'm a cub leader, and we have a large, over average, proportion of children with SEN, as Scouts is very inclusive. And some parents definitely don't tell you, or give you the full details. This can make it very difficult for leaders to handle behaviour of a large group.

@budgiegirl yes I agree with you. Some kids do better in certain environments. Boys can be a wild silly bunch if not managed effectively. But they're also some kids who do struggle and don't like the boundaries and hierarchy. If parents stayed a bit more often they could see how much work goes into each session. But obviously that's not always practical. Scouting is a wonderful opportunity though and is more accessible as low cost compared to most activities. So I hope it does stay that way.

@budgiegirl I meant the poster who came across as being a snobby sneering twit with their "borstal" comments.

I have to agree with this.
It happens a LOT.

Well said @Needspaceforlego (on bottom of prev page)

@SnakebitesandSambucas I agree boys can be a wild silly bunch.
It's winter you can definitely tell when the kids haven't been outside playing at break, lunch or afterschool. They become mental.

All that pent up energy let loose in a small hall. It's mental!!!

I am a Girl Scout leader. All of three our children have been in scouting but yes, we have seen this too. Our son moved group.
You are 100% dependent on the children participating.
Some years are good. Others are total chaos.
Try a different group.

At Beaver age, few children will be diagnosed yet and many parents (and some leaders) dismiss parent concerns as "bad parenting" or "just an excuse". So if you say "I think my DC has ASD, he needs me there and can't cope with loud noises" you'll be told you're just mollycoddling them. If you don't say anything you'll be accused of not supporting the group. You can't win.

I take your point, but I think the key is for parents and leaders to communicate any concerns with each other. It's very hard as leaders (who also can't win, by the way) to look after 30 kids if parents haven't been straight with them about any possible or suspected additional needs, and helped the leaders to understand how to help the kids.

Yet no one wants to volunteer. In a few years most scouts groups will be closed because of no leaders.

I would never say that as a leader. I would thank you for the info and pay attention to your child's need. Guessing about a child's need is the worst as a leader.

We have two leaders - well, one is the leader but the second one is always there. And no, no volunteers go on to be leaders because having volunteered you see that’s absolute hell 😅

I was a Cub leader until recently and behaviour had changed over the previous 10 years, with Cubs less inclined to listen than when I started. But we also had a good period at the start of each new year training the Cubs - instilling some level of discipline and obedience. Because we were a unit who got out a LOT, and we couldn't bring them out of the Den if that wasn't going to be safe - and they loved sessions in the woods, hikes, boating and the camping/hostelling trips. So they knew, if they didn't behave, they would not be allowed to come to the outdoor events - we started in January and were getting out by mid-Feb, and did outdoors as much as possible as we met on Saturdays rather than a dark evening.

But we also had 4 or 5 experienced leaders for 24-27 Cubs, and often 2-5 venturers as well (16 year olds). We started with a game to dip energy levels, we kept the meeting moving with short activities rather than expecting lots of sitting and often moved the cubs between stations, had a few movement breaks in the 90 minutes (threw in a game if needed) and ended with another game.

That took a lot of planning and preparing ahead of time, and at least 4 people running the session (good Vents counted in that 4). A single leader and a couple of parent helpers are only managing crowd control. And not getting the chance to engage, teach, develop skills, for the Cubs. So they lose interest.

Agree with this. While my ds group is lively if the behaviour is as bad as the poster makes out why are the leaders not doing anything about it?

Because there is one leader who's running the group with rotating parents. It's hardly an ideal way to run a group.
The parents aren't even going to know all the kids names or who they need to keep an eye on

A lot of the time it comes down to inexperienced (with groups of children) leaders that think shouting equals behaviour management. It doesn't. I have several 'quiet now, attention on me' tricks that I employ. And we incorporate them into every session to bring back to order. And explain and practice every time we have a new cohort of fresh starters begin. We set the tone and explain behaviour expectations. We've been consistent and are fortunate in that it's worked, and we have a solid and well run unit.

Scouting shouldn't be like school . A lot of children (disproportionate amounts) are there because school is miserable for them (usually because of SEN/additional needs). But there needs to be ways of bringing kids back from a fun, noisy, physical activity to order and calm, otherwise they're being failed, the leaders can't keep them safe.

I'd go to the leaders, and contact district, this colony sounds like they need intervention at district level (not in an "OFSTED" way, in a "needs assistance" way.) It's not sustainable for the leader, from a planning, running and safety aspect. If one parent helper drops out then the session would have to be cancelled etc due to ratio's. Parent helpers aren't going to jump into assistant leader mode as they don't know the expectations or the kids.

Because leaders are volunteers. Not staff. Not trained to work with groups of children. They give huge amounts of time and energy to planning and running sessions.

But they can't work miracles with kids who won't/don't/can't listen or manage their own behaviour. This especially if they're not being supported by an assistant leader or two who knows what the outline for the session is, knows the kids and which combinations of kids will/won't work and can actively manage that, as well as trying to deliver and fulfil badge criteria which is interesting and engaging so the kids don't go home and complain that it was "boring and rubbish and we didn't even do anything".

I can highly recommend St John Badgers if you have a Sett near you? My eldest has been going since she was 5 and absolutely loved it. Always seems very well organised and calm :)

I understand leaders are volunteers and do a great job. But they are the ones responsible for setting expectations and if sessions are out of hand then they need to communicate to both the children and their parents if behaviour is unacceptable and if it continues then their space will be removed.

@scotstars because the parents don't want to know most of the time - not their precious angel. They don't listen to the instructions of "don't send extra sweets on overnights" and we have hyper kids at 2am. They don't tell us if there are issues with DCs so we can use some of our different techniques to work WITH the kids not against them (some need movement, some need clear instructions that are only a few words, some need to have their attention got before you give an instruction, some need visual instructions, some need to work in short bursts while others want to do it from start to finish in 1 go...some need cajoling while other need a more direct approach.. -and every kid is different). We've seen a lot as Leaders and have plenty of different ways of dealing with things.

We've asked that certain kids take a break when we've had issues and parents continue to send them. Plenty of parents send their DCs late so they miss the instruction and want to dive right in without knowing what to do and ruin it for everyone. Or they are very late for collection frequently.

We have asked Cubs not to arrive before the session starts as the Scouts are often using our part of the hall before us most of the year, and Leaders are also setting up for the session - both talking to each other to confirm the plans for the day and make any last minute changes needed, and to actually set up different stations and activities we had planned. But there are a few who see "the Den is open, send them in early"...even if there are no Cub leaders there and it's half an hour early. So there's no one responsible for their DCs...but they have left anyway.

And there's also a distinct reduction in expectations of DCs obeying instructions or obeying someone in authority - they expect to do anything they want, anytime they want. And not be reprimanded.

We don't want puppets we control - we want some liveliness and fun. But we also need to keep the kids safe and Scouts is an organisation dedicated to development of young people, which can't happen if it's just chaos.

But that needs both sufficient leaders running sessions, and parents having parented enough that the young people engage with the programme and that it's not just free babysitting for the parents. The leaders do it in order to pass on skills and competences to the young people - both practical skills like knots, camping, cooking, maps etc - but also softer skills like teamwork, planning and organising, leadership, creativity, autonomy and loads more.

A Cub (or Beaver) meeting is not just Leaders turning up at 5 to 7 to open the hall and turn on the lights. It takes a lot of pre planning

I agree children are not the same and I am fully aware of what goes into running the organisation I have volunteered as a parent. The examples you give of parents not listening doing what they like etc should be addressed we had similar issues of sweets and phones being sent despite being told not to - the leaders sent a message reminding they had requested not to send phones and would keep them safe for the kids. The rules at my sons group seem generally well listened to as the kids know the consequences they are sent home if spoken to twice about not following rules.
It's a very difficult balance of trying to keep the sessions fun while ensuring they are not out of hand. Again leaders need to look at staffing ratios they need to run the meetings as they want

We can't remove places from young people. Regardless of their behaviour. Once they're in, they're in. And can you imagine the uproar if we kicked children out who did have additional needs which made it hard for them to manage their own behaviour? Daily mail sad face "ADHD child is rejected by scouts" "Evil beaver leader shunned ASD boy, 7".

Teachers aren't trained in SEN, never mind volunteers, unless you've got children with additional needs and can therefore spot behaviours, its incredibly difficult to understand and manage. And what works for one child, may trigger another, a hugely delicate balance of accommodating needs.

Then you've got the parents who blame other children "not my precious Prince/what are boys like" attitudes. They don't like to hear if their child has misbehaved. Combined with daddy's nostalgia from when he was a cub. Parent don't want to/can't give time to volunteer, plus they want their child to thrive without them. Parents treat volunteers like paid staff, forgetting that they have lives, jobs, children of their own.

A lot of scouting volunteers are doing the best they can with the resources they've got. I agree with you that bad behaviour shouldn't be tolerated, but it's the way it is.

And it can be SO positive for so many children, it would be a shame to lose it, but that is what will happen if something doesn't change.

If you think you can do better then volunteer properly use your skills and experience to enrich other kids and your kids life

I spent last year looking after and supporting two girls at our girls. It was quite hard work.
I have a healthcare education and a good understanding of SEN.
We were lucky to be adults enough for this solution with 2:1 but we do not have a surplus of committed and competent leaders. It is the same ones who take biggest responsibility.

We sent the two up to an older age group and they developed fantastically but we didn't have the energy for it in the long run. It's a lot to expect that an adult leader works hard to ensure that two girls have a good experience and doesn't ruin the evening's program for the others.

There are always more children who need close adult contact than just a few of them. If you look at the needs of the two girls the rest of leaders are left with the group which is rarely 100% self-sufficient.

I do not foresee voluntary work for many years. There are simply not enough people volunteering and for example parents' and children's behavior is changing rapidly. And not to the better.
I have a community, great experiences and lots friends in the scouting movement but more and more leaders are content with tasks that do not require a weekly commitment. And it could me some day.

Ours is really good but it is led by a couple of teachers, a paramedic and a vicar, so they are pretty well equipped to keep the kids in order. Basically a lot of parents have to help, properly, for it to work.