Beavers - have we just been unlucky, or is this standard?

[KatiMaus]

Hi all - looking for some advice from those that understand this stuff better than me!

DS (6) started at Beavers in January and initially was quite excited at the prospect, but quickly lost interest. I couldn't get to the bottom of why, all he said was that the other kids were 'messing about'.

Last night, I went along as a parent volunteer (they have a rota for this, so it was the first time I'd experienced it). It was absolutely wild. Total lack of control of the kids, instructions not being followed, leader was visibly exasperated and I noticed DS and another boy wincing on a few occasions at the noise.

Games were ruined by kids not following the rules and there was a lot of rough behaviour (pushing each other).

DS is a VERY sensitive boy and is now saying that he doesn't want to go back.

Should I encourage him to persevere with it? Is it likely to get better once they reach Cubs age and calm down a bit? I love the idea of Beavers/scouts etc and the opportunities it will ultimately bring for him, but after what I saw last night, I can't say I blame him for wanting to give it up!

Wise folks of MN - is it always pretty chaotic, or have we got unlucky with this particular group?

I have his name on a waiting list for a group closer to home, too, but have been told that this could take another year or so until he is at the top of the list. Don't know whether to try another group, or accept that this type of thing is not right for DS. 🙁

Any advice gratefully received - thanks!

Children’s behaviour in general nowadays is abysmal. No wonder they can’t get volunteers to run activities. Rude, disruptive, entitled.

DS was small for age, too but didn’t stop growing til 21!
He’s over six feet tall now but it’s no comfort when they are 14 and look 12 !

I've taken my daughter to tasters at two different Rainbows and one Beavers. I stayed for all as my daughter is very shy. All were badly run and I was shocked. I am a teacher and it seemed to me that the volunteers just didn't know how to manage large groups of kids or plan interesting age-appropriate activities. Shame!

Behaviour in society has definitely got worse since COVID, very noticeable in schools so going to impact clubs etc too.

They need more leaders if only one in uniform with that number of children. Explorers don't count in ratio

I love my DD's scout group, the leaders are great and wild behaviour isn't tolerated. Some liveliness but it's channelled into physical activities. They'll also be super quiet and lay on the floor doing map and compass work.

Cubs was more lively, but bad behaviour stopped.

Beavers was utter carnage and I refused to send either of my DC until Cubs.

We decided to go with paid for , professionally run clubs after being unimpressed with the way local cubs and scouts were run. They put my son at risk several times due to arrogantly deciding they knew better than me about his health condition.

He's had lots of fun with various sports clubs instead and is also now really enjoying air cadets.

When I was a beaver leader we tried our best to keep on top of behaviour, but out of a group of 12ish we had 7 with SEN needs severe enough to require a one to one at school, managed between 3 volunteers.
It was quite often total carnage, but they learnt lots and had plenty of fun.

That was my experience 20 years ago. The boys were feral.
I hated my volunteering rota because the behaviour was so bad and was unfamiliar to me. I was naively used to my own DC's good behaviour and compliance.

My son's Beavers were noisy but roughness/violence was not accepted. They had 3 volunteer leaders for 18 kids, and had a pretty good grip on things. His Cubs (different group due to location) is less well run and when I went to help out one week it was quite overwhelming - I'm an experienced Brownie leader but because they weren't "my" group I couldn't use my usual strategies. I don't think the Cub age is necessarily better, it just depends on the leaders and the group makeup

In Brownies I have 30 girls, 4/5 leaders and 2 young leaders. I like to think I'm strict but fair, and almost never have to speak to parents about behaviour. We do have a few challenges though! And listening/attention definitely worse post-pandemic.

It's a constant theme at our beavers and cubs, unfortunately (I'm on our board) both of our sections are full, its a small space, the kids are noisy and a lot of them are badly behaved - i.e. can't / won't listen to instructions, keep interrupting, being rude to leaders, not turn taking etc, and this is on top of the to be expected 'lots of kids in a small room bering boisterous'

We've sent multiple emails home remind families about behaviour to no avail. I think its a combo of older leaders on our part who haven't really changed with the times / don't know how to handle some of the challenges we're getting with kids these days, different expectations on behaviour from parents etc

DS doesn't want to go any more as a result, as he finds it really challenging from the noise and daft behaviour, plus activities often had to be stopped or shortened as the leaders ran out of time due to the constant dicking around of a few kids, which he got annoyed / upset about.

friend of mine was talking about this recently. They were actually considering leaving because the ‘lady in charge treated it like school’ and was apparently strict, quite stern and was ‘always telling kids off’. But then she moved away and they got a new leader. They DID then leave 2 months later because the new person wasn’t at all strict and it turned into what’s described here as absolute kiddie carnage.

makes it even harder for the poor volunteers!

I spent many years running rainbows/brownies/guides. I've recently stopped because the behaviour has got so much worse. I work in a school and have enough dealing with behaviour at work without having it in the evenings too. Behaviour has definitely gone downhill since COVID.

I think it depends on the other kids and the leaders. My DD just started in January and I've stayed a few times to help, and yes they have the moments but the leaders are very good at getting them under control. They structure the evening to make sure they are engaged and allow enough time for burning off energy. So I suspect you are just unlucky with a combination of the kids and/or leaders! Elder DD does cubs and there are a few kids there who definitely push the boundaries but again the leaders are good with them.

Thank you for sharing your experience, it gives me hope that he'll start to grow soon. His dad is 6ft, uncle is 6ft4 & in general we're not a particularly small family. However, he's 13 & easily mistaken for 10/11 (he wears age 10-11 clothing) & his friends tower above him!! It's really hard on his self esteem 😢

The leaders of my son's Beavers and Cubs are all teachers (one a headteacher I think) and they seem to manage to keep them reasonably under control. They set expectations during their first meeting about behaviour and when they expect them to be quiet etc. I don't know what magic they weave, but the kids are quiet when asked, sit nicely when asked etc. And some of them can be absolutely feral when they want to be! They also have quite a lot of leaders - I think there are 4 for his cub pack, plus a couple of Explorers that help out, and then the odd parent helper as wel, so I suspect the ratio helps a lot.

I have done parent volunteering many times. It can be quite rowdy, but generally I think the boys enjoyed it. It gets easier in summer when they can get outdoors more and Cubs then Scouts get progressively better in discipline terms. Depends on expectations really.

The leaders of my son's Beavers and Cubs are all teachers (one a headteacher I think) and they seem to manage to keep them reasonably under control. They set expectations during their first meeting about behaviour and when they expect them to be quiet etc. I don't know what magic they weave, but the kids are quiet when asked, sit nicely when asked etc.

It's not magic, it's the confidence and manner that come from years of experience! There are some kids it doesn't work on though.

Each group is different, you might have more success with the other group. It is worth enquiring if you volunteering would move your son up the wait list - units are crying out for extra adults, and I know ours have bumped kids up the list if their parents commit. You don't even have to volunteer the same age group if you want your child to have the experience without his parent there.

If it is just one leader and two parents i think it would be really hard to run a group.

The problem is that if the leaders are too strict, they get complaints that they are too harsh on the children. I have a friend whose husband and family are scout/cub/beaver leaders and they say behaviour has become steadily worse over the years and they can't really do much about it because the children complain to their parents that Akela shouted very loud, so the parents complain. They say it's a thankless task these days and retention of leaders is very hard.

I am a leader with both Beavers and Scouts. IT can vary term to term depending on the mix of children but we try and manage behaviours by:

• ensuring that we have enough adults - if any of the 4 usual leaders can't attend we rope in parent helpers or leaders from other sections. We also have an explorer or two as a young leader to help out.
• We try and tire them out with a running around game first
• For focussed activity we break them into small groups so that they are easier to manage!
• We use the same strategy as the local primary school of putting your hand up when we need everyone to stop, stay still and listen. They kids are all actually really good at doing this. It also means we dont have to shout as often to get attention etc. It is a ripple effect as soon as a few notice and put thier hands up they nudge the others to do the same.
• We mix up activities so that each week is new and interesting - not playing football every week!

I think it's quite dependant on the pack. My dd goes to beavers and ds to cubs. They have had some silly behaviour but not enough to put either of them off and I did find it calmed down a lot in cubs. On the other hand, my friend's ds goes to a different group and it is rare for them to have any silly behaviour, the leaders really keep them in check.

Are there any forest school sessions running near you? I think these can suit quieter children very well, and he could learn how to make a fire, build a den, use tools etc. - plus another good opportunity to make friends in a non-school setting.

Same - our daughter quit because it was just ruined by some feral children.

Not really enjoying the blame vibe here- the leaders are volunteers who give their precious time so that kids can have fun and learn things. If the kids are really badly behaved, that's on the parents and no-one else. I've stood at the beavers Christmas party while kids mugged the teenage son of the leader for haribos. They literally wrestled him to the ground and prised the sweets from his hands. The parents just stood about laughing and bleating that 'well boys will be boys!' and let them crack on. No, that is shit parenting. There is no excuse and it's not right to heap blame on the leaders.

Our local Beavers and Cubs groups have been absolutely brilliant for DS1, they're fun, confidence building groups that have given him a variety of experiences and helped him to make new friends. I've volunteered at both the Beavers and Cubs groups, and although they can be a noisy and excitable bunch, the kids are respectful and kind and all have a great time.

This was our experience too, absolutely feral. Luckily the really naughty kid’s grown up stayed most weeks - i had to tell him not to sit on my child the time that I volunteered (in front of said grown up who was just looking on!)!

Poor leaders, one of the two has kids who’ve aged out of beavers so I have no idea why she still does it. Is she a saint or a mug? I don’t know. DS enjoyed it until one night he refused to ever go back. It’s a nice way to experience lots of different activities without signing up to loads of individual clubs.

Also cubs is so late (right in younger kids’ bedtimes!) so I thought no point continuing!