Beavers - have we just been unlucky, or is this standard?

[KatiMaus]

Hi all - looking for some advice from those that understand this stuff better than me!

DS (6) started at Beavers in January and initially was quite excited at the prospect, but quickly lost interest. I couldn't get to the bottom of why, all he said was that the other kids were 'messing about'.

Last night, I went along as a parent volunteer (they have a rota for this, so it was the first time I'd experienced it). It was absolutely wild. Total lack of control of the kids, instructions not being followed, leader was visibly exasperated and I noticed DS and another boy wincing on a few occasions at the noise.

Games were ruined by kids not following the rules and there was a lot of rough behaviour (pushing each other).

DS is a VERY sensitive boy and is now saying that he doesn't want to go back.

Should I encourage him to persevere with it? Is it likely to get better once they reach Cubs age and calm down a bit? I love the idea of Beavers/scouts etc and the opportunities it will ultimately bring for him, but after what I saw last night, I can't say I blame him for wanting to give it up!

Wise folks of MN - is it always pretty chaotic, or have we got unlucky with this particular group?

I have his name on a waiting list for a group closer to home, too, but have been told that this could take another year or so until he is at the top of the list. Don't know whether to try another group, or accept that this type of thing is not right for DS. 🙁

Any advice gratefully received - thanks!

Beavers are wild!

But I think that's a huge ask of one permanent leader. It sounds like the group need more parents to actually step up not just on a rota.

Even trying to plan a programme and organise stuff takes time energy and effort.

I don't like the idea of trying different groups because some groups have huge waiting lists. And the dynamics of a group can change very quickly.

take him out if he doesnt like it
wait for cubs

our village group is situated at the edge of the recreation ground
i remember one evening last year they all came charging out,
they were on some sort of treasure hunt
so much energy,
great if you have the space and weather but that is not always the case.

My sons group started a behaviour code as the kids were getting out of hand yellow card is a warning if they get another it's red and parents called to collect. No idea if anyone has been called though

It’s dependent on the skills of the volunteers and sounds like you are unlucky.

id wait to get into the other group or try again at cubs.

Change groups, it varies a lot.

If you would like your son to move up the list for the other group that is closer, you could volunteer with them? That would push him up the list?
Some groups can be chaotic, it depends on the leader and how much help they have, they aren't all the same though.

There is a wide range depending on the level of volunteer support. Funnily enough the kids who cause the most issues are the ones whose parents would never consider volunteering. Scout Groups work best when they are seen as a community everyone contributes to rather than an a hours cheap childcare.

Sorry for the late reply - just wanted to say thanks so much to everyone for sharing your experiences. It's really helped to get things clear in my head. I've got in touch with the other group and have offered to volunteer there in the hope that this might help him to move up the waiting list. A couple of kids from his school go to the other pack, so at least if he gets in, there'll be some familiar faces.

I'm also going to have a chat with the group leader next week and explain why DS is uncomfortable about returning. I'll make it clear that I'm not apportioning blame (well, maybe I am to the lousy parents, but that's not the Scouts' problem!), and see what they say. I'm not expecting any special treatment and am totally accepting of the fact that clearly this doesn't suit DS and may suit other kids better - I just don't like the idea of sloping off without having explained our reasons.

As a few have mentioned, I suspect that the ratios involved here aren't conducive to maintaining good order. I'd be happy to help out, but realistically, it'll probably take more than one extra body to bring things under control (and I work with code for a living, not kids! My experience in this field is really limited, so not sure how much use I'd be).

I also love the idea of having a look for a forest school or other activity. There is a Sea Cadets local to us that I think he can join next year, so maybe that would be better. He does swimming and football/cricket depending on the season, but I wanted him to do something that wasn't necessarily sporty/competitive in nature, too.

Thanks again guys - really appreciate the insights. x

It sounds like it is not for him.
Leave him on the list for cubs/another group. He will be a bit older/the group might be better.
To go to something you don't like after a busy day at school is too much for him right now.
I always had a deal with mine that
A) they could not give up due to one bad week
B) if they gave it a fair go and it's not for them, then fine. They are the ones that have to do it!

@KatiMaus your reply doesn't make much sense.

I'm reading it as you'd volunteer for a different group but not this group.
Why not this one?
Actually help the leader who's doing it?
The lousy parents - what about you?

It's a bit like one of those things everyone wants their kids to go to Beavers and Cubs but nobody really wants to get involved.

I got involved because it just wasn't going to happen if nobody did. And I'm not saying our group is the best run in the county but we do our best to make it fun.

I'm not sure you've read my reply correctly. My point is that one additional adult isn't going to improve the ratio to the extent that many people have suggested is optimal. If I felt that by giving some time to this group would improve things to the extent that DS would be happy there, or that I would be happy to have him in that environment, I would. It would seem really insulting and impertinent for one parent, whose kid has been attending Beavers for all of 6 weeks to steamroller in and tell the leader how things could be better operated, don't you think? I also work full time.

Yes, they are lousy parents. Anyone who has failed to instil the most basic level of manners and standards of behaviour to their kids at this age hasn't done a very good job. If my kid is freaked out and visibly perturbed by the behaviour of others, it's not because there's something wrong with him or my ability as a parent. The problem lies elsewhere.

@KatiMaus Are you in the south east by any chance?

I have children of scouts, cubs, beavers and squirrels age and after several forays in trying out a number of the local troops near us - we have given up. DH was very sad as scouts was a major part of his childhood, but the average calibre of children today in general has changed massively and I'm not having mine waste their time in a pack of screeching, moronic hyenas. My children want to go there and do interesting activies, learn skills, have adventures, play games and make friends. They always listen to the leaders, always behave themselves and always do as they are told (not always the same story at home!)
But sadly they are very much in the minority these days, and even if there was a group where that wasn't the minority, just a few shitty kids are enough to spoil it for everyone. I think badly behaved kids are prevalent at scouts etc because their parents are desperate to have a break from them. My children couldn't bear the constant screeching and bellowing, the bad behaviour and not listening to the leader, the elbows out pushing and shoving, but most of all I think they were just fed up of a lot of the children being - essentially - thickos with rude and crass toilet humour.

We now just try and live more of a scouting lifestyle as a family. It's not the same and it is a shame that it doesnt come with the same opportunities for friendships and independance, but we've had great fun and our camps and excursions feel more Enid Blyton and less 'Borstal kids on their annual outing'.

@MaggieMistletoe see lots of middle class children act like terrors. As in their parents eyes they can do no wrong 🙃. And everyone else was the problem 😉

As someone who has helped and then run church groups for kids for around 25-30 years. There are not enough adults there who know what they are doing.
From my experience you need at least 3 trained adults and then parent helpers are a bonus. I’ve never found parent helpers particularly helpful as they are not involved in the planning and organisation so find it harder to guide and lead activities. Plus they’ve probably had no training or guidance.
They have the correct number of adults for quotas and safeguarding, but from my experience they need more who actually take on some responsibility and organisation.

That's quite a nasty post, in my opinion. Your children may not have enjoyed scouts, and that may well be due to the behaviour of the other children - that's fair enough.

But to call the other children low calibre, shitty and thickos, and to compare them to moronic hyenas and borstal kids, says more about you than it does about them.

This is what kids are also like at school! The leaders are volunteers and are just trying their best but sadly they don’t have the clout to remove kids from the group.

I was a primary school teacher and my kid went through the whole scouting system and is now a young leader. He says the Beavers are feral.

when I helped there were also behaviour problems and you need a strong leader to keep them under control. When the leader changed, it was chaos. I did step in at one point when I was helping as the kids were out of control but then I have experience from working in schools.

speak to the leader and see what they say. You can also go higher to the district and say that support is needed to maintain safety as how can this leader take them on a walk or a camp if they won’t behave in the hall.

I feel this way about a lot of extra curricular stuff tbh.
My kids do too. It’s a lot to put up with all day in the school environment, and now childcare has become so expensive, most clubs are just childcare for kids that don’t want to be at the particular activity, just that activities are often cheaper per hour than a childminder.

@Shufflebumnessie

you could tell your son that Alexander the Great was much shorter than all his generals. Napoleon didn’t tower over any of his Marshalls. I think Nelson was on the short side too

Better not mention Attila the Hun though.

It seems obvious why the group closer to home has a waiting list 😉
I agree with you, no structure and it’s carnage.
Equally when my boys went to Cubs, they were so strict my boys hated it and wanted to leave.

I suppose it’s all about balance 🤷‍♀️

The leader sounds useless! You have to command a room full of kids by getting their attention and engaging them with something that peaks their curiosity. I'd have taken over myself (just for that night, obvs)

It's a bit harsh to call the leader useless.
They are a volunteer, trying to do something nice for kids.

Beavers are wild and trying to get them to listen is hard work. We have certain kids who individually are lovely and listen but together they are wild and gravitate to each other.

Planning a programme is hard work and not even having anyone else to help without people criticising your efforts.

I assume this is a joke? You can’t just ‘take over’ for a night, then bugger off again.

Our rainbows unit had plenty of leaders and rules / discipline. Can you try another unit?