Beavers - have we just been unlucky, or is this standard?

[KatiMaus]

Hi all - looking for some advice from those that understand this stuff better than me!

DS (6) started at Beavers in January and initially was quite excited at the prospect, but quickly lost interest. I couldn't get to the bottom of why, all he said was that the other kids were 'messing about'.

Last night, I went along as a parent volunteer (they have a rota for this, so it was the first time I'd experienced it). It was absolutely wild. Total lack of control of the kids, instructions not being followed, leader was visibly exasperated and I noticed DS and another boy wincing on a few occasions at the noise.

Games were ruined by kids not following the rules and there was a lot of rough behaviour (pushing each other).

DS is a VERY sensitive boy and is now saying that he doesn't want to go back.

Should I encourage him to persevere with it? Is it likely to get better once they reach Cubs age and calm down a bit? I love the idea of Beavers/scouts etc and the opportunities it will ultimately bring for him, but after what I saw last night, I can't say I blame him for wanting to give it up!

Wise folks of MN - is it always pretty chaotic, or have we got unlucky with this particular group?

I have his name on a waiting list for a group closer to home, too, but have been told that this could take another year or so until he is at the top of the list. Don't know whether to try another group, or accept that this type of thing is not right for DS. 🙁

Any advice gratefully received - thanks!

Why would you make him go back? Confused.

That is not the behaviour in our Beaver group.

DD is a Young Leader, with them for 4 years now. She has ASD/ADHD and wouldn't be able to cope in a group as you describe it.

Ours has 3 permanent leaders, one around 75% and 3YL. And around 25 Beavers. It may help that two of the leaders are primary school teachers, I think they have a decent amount of tricks available to do damage control.

I am not saying the Beavers are all angels, but it is possible to run the group in a manner which doesn't cause carnage.

I don't think it is standard of Scouting as a whole, but it could be standard for that group. Sometimes it comes downs to personalities. If you get one or two lively children signing up it can suddenly change the whole atmosphere of the pack.
I find behaviour is worse in the winter when we are stuck indoors, so you may find come the spring that things may improve.
I'd suggest volunteering at another couple of sessions as you've only seen a snapshot of things. With a different leader in charge it could be a completely different atmosphere.

Some Scouting units can struggle with awkward combinations of poorly socialised children (be it due to additional needs or general behaviour issues- I say this as a parent of children who benefit from the semi-structured socialising and life skills that they struggle to pick up in other settings) and a lack of well-socialised children to dilute. It's the quieter children (often including those with additional needs) that come off worse.
Being firm results in the "kind hands" parents whinging and fussing at the volunteers that already have enough on their plate. It's supposed to be fun and that's hard to balance if you have a core that need heavy duty behaviour mangement, that ruins the atmosphere for everyone else.

Even experienced volunteers are struggling to manage challenging cohorts, and it aggravates leader retention issues. One regular leader and two parents is hard going and not going to help with behaviour management.

Many units are struggling with balancing increasing unit costs including big increases in census to HQ, so that strains budgets for activities if you're trying to avoid raising prices for struggling families.

I've noticed a shift in behaviour in both Scouting and Guiding. As general trends of behaviour Guiding has become more chatty or needy. Scouting became louder and more handsy which escalates physically easily. The physicality is more disruptive than the chatter or neediness and has more impact on the other children.

In 2020/21, groups lost many volunteers and the chains of experience of younger children learning from older peers. In one group we were making children sixers as they set foot in the hut for the first time as they were amongst the oldest. The experienced children moved on after a term, and it broke the chain of passing on routines and building responsibility. Even now on pack holiday, the oldest children have less experience, and less independence than children of their age 6 years ago because all that cohort played catch-up at some point.

As so many others have said, it depends.

It depends on the characters / personalities of the other dc in that cohort.
It depends on the confidence and ability of the Leaders.

Having 20 Beavers and only one Leader is really not something I would allow if it were my group. Parent rotas should be about 'additional adults over and above the minimum ratios', IMO. You can't expect even the most capable parent to walk into a meeting as a one off, and be able to act as a Leader. YLs can be brilliant, but, equally, they should only be thought of as additional people - they definitely aren't in ratio.

No, I don't think I'd make a shy and sensitive child keep going, but it would be great if you let the Leader know why (and GLV - Group Lead Volunteer). Done in a nice way "I really appreciate all you are doing but I just think my son is overwhelmed with the noise and the behaviour of some of the children and the fact some of the children aren't listening" type conversation. The GLV should be making decisions about how to recruit new Leaders (yes, I know, easier said than done) or about improving the ratio by 1/2 the Beavers meeting on alternate weeks. It's not fair on the children, and not fair on the Leader for this situation to carry on.

@Shufflebumnessie have you ever had him tested for coeliac disease?

Our Beavers is not like that (maybe only at the beginning before they start). But dd went to Rainbows that was exactly like this. An hour and whatever of girls running around the hall with absolutely no attempt to get them to engage with any sort of organised activity. Just screaming and running and chaos and then they went home.

I suspect it’s very dependent on the leadership and how it’s run. Our Scouts group is very good. Except in winter they are outside, doing night hikes, building campfires, doing outdoor cooking, learning navigation from Cubs age. Even our Beavers did a night walk and learned campfire building last week. I would ask to see the curriculum to see what they have planned. It sounds like they need a bit more structure.

My son only tolerated it for 2 months but the noise was too much for him (he's autistic). My mum was a Beaver leader for many many years and it could be fairly manic but with a decent amount of adults the energy of the young boys was kept as calm as possible (still not very!).

My DS who is noise sensitive but also rowdy (he has ADHD) loved our local Beavers. He had a 1:1 helper for some sessions and we went for others - the leader was (and is) very much in control and knocked anything too rowdy on the head. If there were games it did get very noisy (small hall) but other than that it was in control, and the games were played in a noisy rule-bound fashion (which I think is highly appropriate for this age).
Cubs was also OK - the leaders were a bit more Sergeant Major, but games again were rowdy but only mildly risky (I have no problem with risky games - but not where one child is ruling the roost). DD has carried on to Scouts which is more mature obviously.

Having been a volunteer with a girls group for over 20 years, I do think behaviour is generally worse than it used to be. That being said, maybe try different groups or activities because it can vary. Good luck!

I run a unit. It depends on the group of children each term. As PP has said, as little as 1 or 2 children can make a huge difference to the whole atmosphere and experience. I'd pull him out for now but explain why to the leader (in a supportive manner) and try again in a different unit, or this unit during a different term, if they'll hold his space.

I removed DS from Beavers as he was in a similarly rowdy unit and one boy hit him over the head with a wooden club. The unit leader shrugged and told me “boys will be boys” so DS did not go back.

I think it is very much dependent on the group and their leadership team. Both beaver groups my eldest son attended were well run in different ways. The first one was very good at outlining expectations in behaviour, lots of organised activities and the kids knew each week what the plan was, and what the alternative plan was if, for example, the weather was too poor for canoeing. Centre of town with no outdoor space onsite but a camping ground and easy access to river activities on the other side of town.

The second group was much smaller in number, with onsite outdoor space. Equally experienced leaders but less communication with parents and as a result, the group seemed more chaotic. We never knew from one week to the next whether it was an indoor or outdoor activity. The section leader could be quite shouty and the group leader used to regularly verbally denigrate the members - of all ages. Ds struggled much more in that group and we were about to remove him when he went into cubs and the section leader was much, much better.

Ultimately Ds' journey in scouting was cut short when he reached scouts and the leader didn't understand neurodivergence and thought it was something which could be 'beasted' out of him. We fought for a long while but in the end Ds was suffering too much.

I don’t know but I took my daughter to brownies, it was strange and similar and had really non existent safeguarding procedures. Really poor security on the premises etc. The final straw for me was an organised outing, where the transportation to a local theatre was by train. On the day of the trip we all met at the station, where we were told that it had been decided that it was easier to go by car, split between various drivers . My Child was allocated to a car with a newly qualified 17 year old driver and I just thought , no way, and took her home. I’m sure it was probably legal but I wasn’t comfortable at all.

Seen threads on here about this before so guessing it's more common than not

It really depends on the leaders and kids.
We've been lucky because the leaders at my son's beavers, cubs and scouts were excellent. Some of the kids misbehaved something rotten but most were OK most of the time.
He goes to explorers now and I guess the age range means leaders are more hands off. The kids there are crazy and loud!

Probably because there's no training in how to do these things. You get safeguarding and that kind of thing but then are just left with a group of excited kids. And usually struggling for ratios because parents won't bloody help even once a term. It's a thankless task

Don’t make him go! It’s not him. Find something he likes.

Winter term is bloody relentless as a scout leader, they're all cooped up and insane. It's so much easier & more pleasant for everyone when they're outside.

You could ask what's coming up on the agenda this half term & see if it's more outdoorsy now the lighter nights are coming?

But if he doesn't like it, don't force it. Scouts should be enjoyed not endured. Maybe wait & see if the other group has a different vibe.

My oldest son lasted 3 sessions at Scouts for the same reason, shitty behaviour by the other children and the leader was absolutely hopeless. He meant well, but just couldn't manage behaviour.

My daughter's Rainbow and Brownie troop leaders, otoh, had their troops well under control and were very experienced and very organised. No poor behaviour was accepted from the children. It was made very clear to children and parents about behaviour expectations and what would happen if they weren't followed (no longer allowed to attend). The children had a great time as a result.

It may be worth trying a different group they do vary massively . I used to be a cub and beaver leader and my groups were very different even to the other groups in our section . It’s very much down to the leaders .

I'm a former Cub leader and used to help at Beavers too. I found that you need a good 10 mins of running around shouting before you'll get anything sensible done.

Ours was awful. Poor leader didn’t want to run it anymore but no new leaders would come forward. Kids left to run riot. Some kids spoiled any attempts at craft or structured stuff. Us parent helpers were pretty shocked how unruly it was. We moved to our local boys brigade and it was wonderful. My son went to Denmark, the USA, loads of camping trips and days out and the people running it were genuinely lovely and keen but also kept the kids busy and behaving themselves

My son has been in scouts from being a a month too young for cubs but no room in beavers. It's well run and my son is autistic so wouldn't of been able to cope in that environment. I would definitely try another pack. He's now in explorer scouts at almost 17yrs old, there's only one leader he doesn't really like because he tries to restrict them too much as though they're the younger kids but he gets on with it. The things he's done with them is amazing and helped him with social situations no end. He has even made life long friends, about 6 of them, and they meet up socially to go bowling/cinema then a meal etc. The benefits from a well run scouting pack, beavers, cubs, scouts, explorers can be amazing but they need the right volunteers to be able to run properly. It sounds like yours is struggling to have consistent volunteers which doesn't help with kids and discipline. Ours is crazy at times when they're having nerf wars or out on the banking doing hide and seek but they can be brought back to order quickly.

It’s not my experience of Beavers. My children attended two different packs for Beavers, cubs and scouts and all groups were well run. it’s a waste of everyone’s time if the children aren’t listening and not able to do any meaningful activities and I can’t see how the group you are describing would be able take part in activities such as fire lighting - although that might have been cubs rather than Beavers. Speak to the leader as perhaps more parents helping at each session might be the way forward although I do appreciate it can be difficult to get parents to commit to helping.