To think - how awful schools really are

[Ippimi]

I remember hating school when I went to school. But that was a long time ago now. I'd kind of forgotten about it.

I work for a training company that usually delivers training programmes to businesses. I usually teach adults. I'm not working in the UK at the moment. I'm working in a different country in Europe.

However we recently got asked to design a training programme for a local school. So for the last couple of weeks I've been going in and talking to the children in a school about a topic.

Going into the school- and looking at it as an adult - I just think it's so so awful. Why do we do this to children

The children are not allowed to move , they're not allowed to talk. The teacher yells at them to be quiet all the time.

I understand this is the school system everywhere. I remember that I hated school as a child and I felt trapped. But when I look at it from an adults eyes, it looks even worse.

when I look at it as an adult, it really seems like emotional abuse of children.

It also seems like such a waste of their young years.

They should be playing and having some fun.

They're not allowed to move or talk. And they get shouted at A lot. It just seems like they're getting indoctrinated to not think for themselves and to follow orders. The school system is just awful and needs to change in my opinion

"Well they are allowed to do it here."

I think you need to recognise @Ippimi that things are different where you are to the UK. Different laws for a start.

Do you have children OP?

I'll ask again - we are interested to hear you explain what the alternative to children being told to be quiet in class is? What does that look like? How would you handle disruption?

How on earth is it unusual?

I had several different organisationa that came into deliver training to my class , when I was a child in primary school

Oh come on, there’s no need for that. Many adults struggle with spelling and grammar, myself included. You understand what she means.

Right, so you deliver training to primary school children, and are left alone with them?.

Yes. I'm left alone! I've written that loads of times.

Sorry, I wasn’t giving your thread my full attention. It can be frustrating when people do that.

Yes, well times have changed.
A lot.
Budgets have changed. Who paid for your enhanced DBS, was it your company?
What kind of training do you offer?

Well, I think we can all agree that improvements in education are always welcome.

However, people complaining about draconian rules in school shouldn't necessarily be taken as evidence that schools are all terrible/like jails/denying children their basic rights etc.

My dd's primary school was as near to perfect as a school could be imo - a wonderful, warm, nurturing and accepting environment in which every child was supported to thrive.

Her secondary school wasn't perfect and I'm sure that we occasionally complained about stupid rules around uniform or other trivial issues. Matters that the school inexplicably chose to fixate on which we considered to be unnecessary or irrelevant to the learning experience. But regardless of those complaints, my dd loved school and got so much out of the experience. She thrived despite the imperfections, and yes, she might occasionally have grumbled about this or that, as teenagers inevitably do, but she positively thrived in the school environment. As did most of her friends.

There are obviously some children for whom school isn't the best environment - often because of SEN and/or mental health difficulties etc - and we absolutely need to ensure better provision for those children for whom mainstream schooling isn't the right fit. But we don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. For the vast majority of children, schools do a good job.

Brilliant post, thank you 👍

That's quite a large primary school, six different classes, I'm guessing you deliver training to all years?

I went to an all girls secondary school (I was the first year of comprehensive intake) in the 1970s/80s and my school was not like that at all.

There were no petty rules and we were listened to.

Then if they’re so different in that respect, maybe acknowledge they’re different in terms of children being allowed to talk, as well? As my lovely school sounds nothing like the one you’re describing.

What do you mean by saying they behave for you?

As in they listen? Isn't that abusing them making them listen to you?

What country are you in that you’re allowed to be in a primary class without any permanent employee of the school?

What sort of training are you delivering to primary school pupils, I'm intrigued?

I never wrote, "they behave for me".

I wrote, "I let them talk to the child next to them'.

This is not my experience of schools and I work in a lot! Do you know how many schools are in this country? They are not all the same.

Six classes! All unsupervised. The class teacher goes away to "correct homework" she says.
I'm very curious as to what kind of training this is and what school can afford it.
I'm guessing not in the UK.

OP you have been repeatedly asked what you would do if the kids talked, laughed and messed around to the extent that no one could hear your voice, but you won’t answer. I am 100% certain that you would ask them to be quiet. Because otherwise you may as well not be there.

Yet you've written your comment with perfect use of both, proving it can be done with recognition, application and effort 👏

My original comment wasn't intended to be about anyone other than the OP, who has seen fit to pass judgement on the educational practices of entire countries based solely on her/his own limited experiences.

In my school (not in UK) a teacher would need a serious disciplinary conversation about either shouting at children or leaving them with an external trainer unsupervised.

Probably the shouting would be a warning plus improvement plan. The high risk safeguarding concern (leaving them with external trainer) would be a very serious issue indeed. Safeguarding and children’s wellbeing are top priority, and have been in any school I’ve worked in in multiple countries over the last 20 years.

The thing is, I think probably what you don’t understand is the escalation of noise.

If the teacher lets one child whisper quietly to their friend, then a few more will start to do the same. Then one will turn around and talk to the person behind them. Then if they are allowed to do that, then one child will shout to someone at the back of the class. Then if that’s allowed another will get up and walk over to their mate.

Same with allowing children to go to the loo. If you let one go - then about 10 will put their hands up and say they need to go too. They like to go in lesson as then it doesn’t cut into their lunch times.

Im not saying the school system is perfect, but just the reality of dealing with 30 teenagers at a time. You have to have super strict boundaries - no talking means no talking - at all. They have very overdeveloped sense of justice and if they see someone whispering and not getting told off, they’ll think it’s just the most unfair thing that’s ever happened if you do tell them off for yelling at their friend across the classroom.

Yes, but it’s a good place to start, OP. Good ideas can spread throughout schools if they work. Schools are often in a consortium so may even travel further.

I can’t speak for all boroughs, however in my area, parents and our PTA our the backbone of local schools. We work very hard to raise money to ensure our kids are getting the very best equipment, trips and education. Parents are frequently invited in as assistants in learning and so there’s definitely a good collaboration between school and families. It’s great to see such a nurturing, creative and containing environment, reminiscent of my primary school.

If ever I heard a teacher telling any child to ‘keep their mouth closed’, I’d escalate in a heartbeat. My point is there are many things one person can do. Mumsnet is a great place to vent/get advice, but that’s the limit. If you truly feel upset, use that energy to promote real change.