To think - how awful schools really are

[Ippimi]

I remember hating school when I went to school. But that was a long time ago now. I'd kind of forgotten about it.

I work for a training company that usually delivers training programmes to businesses. I usually teach adults. I'm not working in the UK at the moment. I'm working in a different country in Europe.

However we recently got asked to design a training programme for a local school. So for the last couple of weeks I've been going in and talking to the children in a school about a topic.

Going into the school- and looking at it as an adult - I just think it's so so awful. Why do we do this to children

The children are not allowed to move , they're not allowed to talk. The teacher yells at them to be quiet all the time.

I understand this is the school system everywhere. I remember that I hated school as a child and I felt trapped. But when I look at it from an adults eyes, it looks even worse.

when I look at it as an adult, it really seems like emotional abuse of children.

It also seems like such a waste of their young years.

They should be playing and having some fun.

They're not allowed to move or talk. And they get shouted at A lot. It just seems like they're getting indoctrinated to not think for themselves and to follow orders. The school system is just awful and needs to change in my opinion

Visiting to deliver a talk (with associated discussion) is a bit different from eg teaching them Maths where they have to listen silently in order to think hard, learn and make progress, which they and the teacher are measured by.
We have visitors come in to deliver Sex Ed, Worship, Careers. There's plenty of discussion built in so the children can talk. It's different.

Thanks. It wasn't clear from reading her post and I haven't read the whole thread.

OP what you describe is so far from everything I’ve seen in my 25 years in British classrooms. All children start the day with a soft start where they do quiet activities and speak to friends. In Early Years children learn through play, in KS1 children spend most of the time learning sounds and taking part in practical activities. In KS2 most teachers plan for “Talk time” . Children have plenty of opportunities to talk in class, just not in the ten minutes that the teacher is delivering the learning input. I’ve very rarely heard teachers shout; it’s well known that once you’ve reached that point you’ve effectively lost the class. Most teachers spend hours making learning fun. But children also need to know there is a time and place to talk.

It is impossible to teach a class of children who are all charting amongst themselves. Absolutely impossible. I have a class of 33 and if I allowed this the noise would be horrible - sound bounces off the hard surfaces in small classrooms such as mine. I also have a number of children with an ASC diagnosis for whom the noise would be painful. Primary children, many of whom have phones, iPads etc that they are glued to in their own time, have teeny tiny attention spans. It is vital that they listen and look and can follow instructions.
I do not like shouting and rarely do. I reward the behaviours I want to see. Sometimes, however, it is necessary to raise my voice to get children to settle.
Nobody wants to think of children being upset but it’s really not a kindness to not teach respect, politeness and self control.
With the greatest respect OP, you have no idea why children are crying and there’s no way in hell I would ever tell you. That’s personal and private. Also, there’s zero chance that you would be allowed to deliver anything to a class without a teacher being present (in my school but I suspect that’s uk wide). It’s a massive safeguarding issue.

I can teach up to 240 kids a day. If they could all talk whenever they wanted, go to the toilet whenever they liked etc it would be total carnage, no one would learn anything.

I am wondering if this is France.

Yes, I was wondering the same.
I have read that they have very traditional values there

You really can’t. Or you shouldn’t. It’s rude. Don’t talk in the cinema. At all. Please. You are there to watch a film not have a chat.

I'm a teacher. In my school...

Children are expected to listen respectfully while the teacher is teaching the class, yes. This allows everyone to listen and learn.

Children are expected to engage with the work they are given, rather than sit and chat with their friends aboutubrelated things. This is because the primary purpose of schools is to educate.

Children are removed from lessons when their behavior is preventing others rom learning, yes. This allows the majority of students to learn.

Children are not allowed to talk at school. No, this is completely untrue.

The behavior of some children (and their parents) is off the scale right now. The entitlement and lack of basic manners and consideration for others is breathtaking at times. Unfortunately this means teachers have to have some basic expectations and enforce them. Of they don't, then learning will not take place and the teachers will be blamed...

You wrote "UK wide".

As I've said, I'm not in the UK.

I'm also not sure why you wrote that last part of your paragraph aggressively to me

You wrote"
"There's zero chance you would be allowed to deliver anything without a teacher being present".

Like it's something that I have any say in.

It's not my choice that I'm alone With the children. I'd be more than happy for the teachers to stay with me .

THEY CHOOSE to leave the classroom and go to the staffroom to correct work.

It's not my choice. It's their choice. So I'm not sure why I'm being talked to like I'm creating a safeguarding issue.

My son is in year 3 and he loves school- he's excited to go in and he gets really pumped up for his weekly maths tests. It's not anything special as far as schools go, only good with ofsted etc. He gets upset when other kids mess around or make noise because he genuinely enjoys learning and despite doing a lot weekends and holidays with him he looks forward to going back and seeing his friends. I feel like something like homeschooling would be a much worse thing to do to my kid, but appreciate each one is different.

I do agree. School was very strict when I was a child but there seemed to be a shift, a recognition of learning through play. When I worked in education in early 2000's there was a big focus on play especially child led learning. I'm now a Governor in a school and all the schools inthe trust seem to be moving away from learning through play and it's back to the old method of sit in silence and be parroted to.

Your comprehension isn’t the best if you think I’m being aggressive or accusing you of anything. I’m just pointing out that this wouldn’t be allowed in the uk. I realise also that you are not in the uk…
The insistence that children should not be corrected, should not have to follow the basic rules of human interaction and should never, ever be sad is what is destroying education. It’s just bizarre. Honestly? You have absolutely no idea of the challenges of teaching 33 nine year olds. At this point you’re just making yourself look foolish.

If they did they were wrong to.
Very unlikely, wouldn’t even have happened when I was at primary in the 80s.

@Ippimi
If you aren't in the UK, what country ARE you in?

Love this. OP, just don't take on that contract.

The structure, discipline and predictability of schools are an absolute lifeline to many children who have chaotic home lives.

You say you're not being aggressive, then you call me foolish. It's hardly being nice isn't it?

Look, I see that it's difficult for teachers aswell. I don't think the current system is good for either teachers or students.

Expecting one adult to manage thirty children is a bit ridiculous.

@Ippimi

It's strange. On a thread where I'm discussing children's rights.
You think people would be like "yes children's rights should be improved"

That’s not now debates about rights work though. Or I could start a thread about children’s rights to study undisturbed by their peers, or teachers’ rights to teach without interruption, and you’d have to agree. Because rights, innit? You’re surely not against children’s and teachers’ rights?

There’s a balance to be struck, but you aren’t engaging at all with any discussion around that, so you aren’t persuading anyone new. And people are a bit puzzled by your description of teachers screaming and shouting routinely. That seems really bad. But it also feels not representative, so doesn’t really seem to support the general conclusion you want to draw. (You ought to be relieved that others find that rare and unrepresentative, but you don’t seem pleased at all).

If you read what I wrote. It's not that they're telling them to be quiet. They're shouting at them to shut their mouth and close their mouth. It's quite aggressive.

Yes. Dd had the loveliest reception teacher accompanied by a wonderful nursery nurse. She was so nurtured. That was mid 90’s.

I think many schools are struggling because dc with severe special needs are pushed into standard primary schools.
It’s not good for anyone. Every dc should have the appropriate educational setting.

That coupled with helicopter parenting and WhatsApp gossip groups.
Horrendous.

Safeguarding

Maybe not the best practice, but I clearly remember people coming in to give us talks, and I remember our teacher going out of the room.

I remember our local football team won some big trophy. The manager came in to give us a big talk about winning and motivation for an hour. Our teacher left us alone with him. I mean it's not best practice but it did happen

But primary teachers in the UK posting on here say that's not the same. Whatever country you're in obviously has a very different system.

Because it IS a safeguarding issue. For you as well as the students.