Why is there no threads about trump and putin?

[mommyfinger]

Just making a deal without Ukraine ? Is this not really fucked up? I'm worrying more than I ever have about the world. I think Europe need to tell them to fuck off

It's in the interest of all the countries in Europe to stop Putin. We don't have to defeat him exactly. Just make it too expensive in resources to carry on

How do you propose to do that though? Putin can much more easily destroy Russia's economy to restock his military (if needed) than any European leader can. And is much further advanced in military manufacturing currently. Europe has a tough job ahead of it to catch up.

And the terrible reality that Putin is ready to sacrifice more citizens / enforce more to fight to do it

Im anxious about it - and am normally never anxious. Being well-read on WW2 and its build up, all I see are parallels to now - including in the responses of "normal" people to what's emerging.

Head in sand, minimising, adjustments in thoughts and beliefs in order to accept new emerging realities, acceptance by some of lies as facts...

My poor children. Your poor children. Their poor children. It's potentially going to get very nasty indeed

Perhaps we should be thinking about the people in Ukraine who have had 3 years of this horrendous war and barbarism now before we start worrying about our own kids.

@insomniaclife I'm well read up on it also and I'm not worried at all.

There is more to history than WW2.

How many times has Europe destroyed itself fighting against Russia? Three times now?

America doesn’t want any part of this anymore. Make an agreement and move on

It is the parallels with Germany in the 30s and 40s that I am referring to, not the Hundred Years War or the Napoleonic wars good grief.

Propaganda. Lies as facts. Megalomaniac supported by powerful cronies. Creation of enemies within and enemies without, to blame all social ills on. Rise of misogyny. Dismantling of social structures and the value of tolerance. Voices of appeasement. There's loads of parallels and that you don't see it is ok.

Europe and Russia have choices to make.
Is the US friend, foe or acquaintance.

"Make an agreement and move on"

WAKE UP!!! Not possible! If you think it is then you are being very naïve or haven't read much.

Putin is not to be trusted. No "agreement" of any sort would hold without the threat of NATO. And NATO is being pulled apart by Trump due to his lack of morals, principles or integrity. Trump is happy for Ukraine to fold since he intends to strip it of its precious minerals and take a 50% stake in the country as if he's Britain circa 1750.

Trump (America) is no longer an ally people. Get used to it. They are our enemy. And Putin will be emboldened to invade Moldova or the Baltics within the next couple of years.

Well, thanks for simplifying that for all of us 😐

If America doesn't want any part of it, why is America making the agreement about Ukraine without Ukraine?

Minerals apparently.

rare earth elements, part of the elements and materials used in your phones etc

Ukraine possesses significant reserves of rare earth elements (REEs), which are crucial for high-tech industries, defense applications, and renewable energy technologies.

at a guess it could be what the whole war has been about

Absolutely agree. It's worrying indeed. Annoyingly predictable and yet few paid attention 5 years ago to the obvious next Russian step after Ukraine, until now when it's almost too late and we have to contend with The Idiot American as well.

I get the impression that Trump really does just want this war over and giving Putin the land he’s won already is the quickest way to get the fighting to stop. Job done - except of course it isn’t because we can’t trust Putin to stick with what’s agreed. He’s going to want to take more land for Russia and if he knows the US won’t fight him on this then at some point he’s going to invade somewhere again.

this is my concern about this current development - Trump agrees a deal with Putin to stop the war (aka Russia gets to keep what it has already taken from Ukraine).

Trump get his Nobel Peace Prize (he only cares about his own self-aggrandisement after all).

Russia goes quiet for a year to regroup and rearm, then comes back on Ukraine and starts again where they left off. It all smacks of the same appeasement of Hitler - "Peace in our Time" speech by Chamberlain. Within a year Hitler did exactly the opposite of what he said he would. Depressingly, History repeating itself, nobody learning, ignorant, selfish and arrogant world leaders men

the problem is even if putin is doing a hitler, the economic costs alone will bankrupt europe especially without the us support and even then its a stretch with us support to stop putin so basically other than appeasement we may as well switch our nuclear forces to defcon 2, because that would be the main way to stop putin but the rest of the world will suffer because we wanted to stop one person

the problem is even if putin is doing a hitler, the economic costs alone will bankrupt europe especially without the us support

Europe was bankrupted by WWII. War decimates economies.

Europeans literally think they are one aid package away from Ukrainian victory.

How much more money are you willing to spend on this?

If America stops funding Ukraine, how long will it take until they fold?

Does Europe really think it can supply all the funds and weaponry?

As an American, I don’t want one American life or one American dollar sacrificed for Ukraine. Maybe Europeans feel differently tho

Maybe Trumps plan is give Putin the land/half the land it has now, in return for 50/30/25% of Ukrainian minerals and Ukraine get NATO membership? With the vow to Putin if he takes one step further then he'll rain almighty hell on them.
The minerals access might serve as insurance for Ukraine- until it's all gone at least, but no idea how long that would take, or could take if Zelenskyy makes them take their time over it. The longer the US takes to extract all of that the more time Europe has to rebuild its armies and prepare its people for possible war vs contributing more to NATO.
Plus the minerals access might give Trump a bargaining chip for the US people, saying Ukraine is our friend now, we will not let Putin invade etc - his cheering masses will clearly suck up whatever him and the clearly elated Elon feed them.
Maybe the same in Gaza- he's rearming Israel and threatening to steal Gaza to put the shitters up them, ready to steal a strip of land for his US riviera on the basis that if anyone steps out of line on either side, then he'll bomb whatever's left of Gaza and stop propping up Israel?
Also very worried about this whole situation but hoping these big talking buffoons recognise they're not military strategists, their people don't want war and everyone will be much happier/richer if they do somehow find a path through it all?
I can't stand Trump or Musk and their grip on the US in terms of propaganda and censorship is truly frightening but I really hope they're not warmongers - just can't see it somehow. It could fail disastrously and they would not want that - Trump seems glory and cheering crowds and being at the head of war strategy would be very far out of his comfort zone. I hope anyway.
Plus Trump and his far right buddies are right about how much has been spent propping up people that should work harder to support themselves - and by that I mean for example the never ending procession of asylum seekers who there seems to be no plan for, other than put them up in hotels indefinitely until their families join them and then they get a house and benefits?
If Europe didn't accept so many "asylum seekers" from these countries then maybe they would have had to stay put and fight for the freedom/safety of their fellow people. Instead we are allowing those countries to get worse for everyone left stuck there - esp. women and girls - and their mentalist leaders eg. Taliban get worse and worse with no opposition to challenge them.
And bored, purposeless, frustrated, lonely asylum seekers in Europe do what all bored purposeless etc people (men) do - they get up to no good.
So a dose of hard reality / threat from the far right might be what sleepy US /Europeans have needed for a while to sort ourselves out and stop hosting people with no clear plan and no benefit to the countries they've left or arrived in.
In fact if this was the end game, that the reams and reams of bored purposeless men (eg. rising numbers of incels, porn addicts, paedophiles, far right rioters etc) are all roused up to join armies and get fit and fired up for a common national purpose - a megawar that almost but doesn't quite happen, then maybe that wouldn't be such a bad thing. Trump and pals would get the glory of keeping peace, being tough on immigration, reducing crime, increasing jobs etc - even though rational people would be terrified for years.
It's just the risk of it tipping into full scale hell on earth that needs to be managed 😩

Russia won't accept Ukraine becoming part of NATO. Trump wants Russia on its side against China.

Yes I'd forgotten about China - there's scope for improving relations with Russia that would re- engage them with US/Europe I guess.
So you reckon Trump will give Russia all the land it has currently and Ukraine get nothing? That'll give him loads of grief from Ukraine and Europe though- surely he'll have some appeasement up his sleeve for Ukraine.

Yeah I don't know how the negotiations will go. I see that Zelensky seems to be getting Erdoğan on his side - that might give him more bargaining power. I believe Turkey's army is in pretty good shape and Erdoğan looks keen to exert some power. Hate to think what Ukraine will be giving up to them though.

1.Why can they? 2. Since around the 1940's. Like it or not.