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Different cultures approach after birth?

111 replies

Cornecopia · 02/01/2025 10:05

Good morning guys. Following on from a thread I read earlier it has got me thinking…. A lady was upset that there hadn’t been much help after her baby had been born, ie people offering to clean her home/cooking her meals etc.
one comment said that the way people in England do things is ‘bordering on torterous’ meaning we are expected to have the baby, carry on as normal with minimal help from family and friends. I personally have 3DCs and had very little help from anyone when they were babies-but I didn’t expect it either (apart from their father of course)
this had me wondering how do other cultures do things?

OP posts:
ChateauMargaux · 02/01/2025 12:01

I saw that thread and I might repost this reply on there too..

The Utopian idea of the village that supports families with new borns is based on unwritten contracts between the villagers and the families where grandparents gave up their jobs / businesses / houses to help the next generation, looked after children so parents could work and in return expected to be housed and cared for in their old age. The wider village community each plays a part in meeting the needs of the community, with each person giving and receiving.

We have stepped away from that, to some extent and in some extend not. We no longer expect child care to be provided within our own family circles nor do we expect to have to take care of our elder family members. In fact, the broader state does that for us in the form of school from age 4 and old age care in later life.

We have also moved away from the utopian model in that we have sufficient income to have bigger houses, more things, more leisure activities, more expectations and more wishes, that take our time away from looking after our children and our houses. In a victorian two up, two down house, with three generations of family living in it, and a toilet in the garden, there was no time to think about cleaning the toilet, hosting visitors and engaging in intimate bonding with your child - you cleaned the front step, nodded at your neighbours and kept your family alive.

The upper layers of society could afford to host guests, have polished silver, starched linens and manicured lawns, but this was done by staff.

It is unreasonable to expect the Utopian village to show up unless you and your family has also paid into this village contract. There are and were, many issues with life in this Uptopian village - perpetuation of family patterns, oppression of women, abuse of children - and there are many benefits of the new societal model - fewer people fall through the cracks, exposure to outside influences is largely positive and people more are financially independent. We are in danger of idolising the 'indigenous' ideals without understanding that our modern world brings with it, many many benefits and that there is no 'ideal'.

Having said all of that, I do think we should think about how we want to be supported in the post partum period and that we should put steps in place to make that happen. Sophie Messager has written a book called 'Why Post Partum Matters', in this she explores post partum cultures in different places, including in Europe and talks about how we can build these in to our modern lives, working out exactly how much this costs and how we can fund it. Some of this will be in the form of paid for services, others will be in the form of reciprocal support. We can not expect other people to make us food, if this is something that we have never done for others, but there are many meal services we can pay for.

Mothers and young babies, absolutely benefit from being supported and many women find the early months, isolating and lonely. There are many forms of support available, drop in mother and baby sessions led by health visitors, mother and baby groups in church halls, pre and post natal NCT groups, community groups - I googled what was available in one medium sized UK town and there were about 10 free listings and many more paid options, where connections, friends and sources of support are made.

Oh - this is turning into a blog post...

In the Netherlands, the kraamzorg nurse provides daily check ups and basic house keeping services for the first week after birth - 49 hours in total. In the UK, midwife and health visitor system focuses on the health of the mother and baby, identifying families that need more support and putting them in touch with the services that can provide that - however, this is no where near the level of cleaning and providing food. In many 'cultures' - (I use that loosely, as I do feel we are in danger of idealising cultural models that have been gently unravelled due to the harms that result from these models, outweighing the benefits and the benefits from a more independent society, outweighing the harms of a more interdependent society. I also say that hesitantly, as we absolutely do benefit from human interaction, service to and support from others. Somewhere in between, lies the perfect village, where we all help each other, everyone had enough, there are no bombs, no guns and no diseases - hmm... that would make a good song!!)... as I was saying - in many cultures, women support other women in birth and post partum, cooking, cleaning and looking after older children in the weeks after birth. There is a lot to be said for this model of support, but this is unpaid work... and most women in our culture do not have capacity to provide this service and those who wish to do so and be paid for this work, actually find it very difficult to be compensated for it.

too much for this thread. - probably!!

Lentilweaver · 02/01/2025 12:05

I am of Indian heritage. Mum helped me a great deal with one of my DC. In return I wont be sending her to a care home and will be taking her into my home when she can no longer cope. That would not be acceptable for most people. I am lucky that DH is ok with it.

Help goes both ways. On MN I find people only want it to go one way.

Cornecopia · 02/01/2025 12:35

Fantastic answer! Very insightful and food for thought, you should definitely post it on the other thread x

OP posts:

Interested in this thread?

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Cornecopia · 02/01/2025 12:36

Lentilweaver · 02/01/2025 12:05

I am of Indian heritage. Mum helped me a great deal with one of my DC. In return I wont be sending her to a care home and will be taking her into my home when she can no longer cope. That would not be acceptable for most people. I am lucky that DH is ok with it.

Help goes both ways. On MN I find people only want it to go one way.

thank you for this reply, backs up @ChateauMargaux post xxx

OP posts:
Overtheatlantic · 02/01/2025 12:38

A colleague in Tanzania, his wife went to her mother’s house with their newborn for a month, and was taken care of by her mother and aunties. Dad not needed during that time lol.

Lentilweaver · 02/01/2025 12:42

Overtheatlantic · 02/01/2025 12:38

A colleague in Tanzania, his wife went to her mother’s house with their newborn for a month, and was taken care of by her mother and aunties. Dad not needed during that time lol.

Yes, so did I. But most Mners do not want to stay at their mums house for 2 months. They find Xmas tough.
Close family bonds come at a price. Not everyone may want to pay it.

TheUndoing · 02/01/2025 12:51

I think the thing is that to have a village, you need to contribute to the village too. So if you want your parents/in laws/friends to turn up support you when you have young kids you also need to be putting an awful lot of work to support others when they need it.

I think a lot of people these days believe they can set endless “boundaries” and engage with others only on exactly their own terms, but simultaneously expect a lot of support and help. I’m not saying having boundaries is a bad thing, just that people often don’t seem to accept that they come with consequences. If you don’t want your MIL in your house for 4 weeks after the birth and won’t let her kiss the baby, then she’s probably not going to want to scrub your loo and turn up
with endless meals…

JourneyToThePlacentaOfTheEarth · 02/01/2025 12:52

I stayed with my mum for a month after my first dc was born. She did everything- cooking cleaning bathing dc, helping with night feeds and dealing with visitors. Dh lived close by. In our culture (Nigerian) it is considered an honour for the grandma to do that because it's a blessing to have a grandchild. Usually grandma goes to stay with the new mum at her house but our flat in London was too small and already had visitors staying so I went to my mum. It was so helpful, especially because I was very sore with stitches and I hope to do similar for my dd one day.

Meadowfinch · 02/01/2025 12:52

It depends on what the new mum needs too.

I just wanted to be left alone to bond with ds. I didn't want anyone near me for the first six weeks. My hackles rose at any well meaning friend or family trying to pop round. I didn't really need help, just peace and no expectations. The HV visited twice, gave me some iron tablets and then left me to it.

I couldn't have coped with anyone interfering.

JimHalpertsWife · 02/01/2025 12:54

Depends what the set up at grandma/Mums houses are - some of these examples upthread sound lovely, but most (British) women with adult daughters still work full time.

Catsinaflat · 02/01/2025 12:54

I had my children in the 90s in Greece. Nobody expected a mum and newborn to go out in the first few weeks. (Traditionally 40 days though you could half it and just stay home for 20). Various female relatives would come and cook and clean for us with no expectation of me lifting a finger other than to care for the baby.
Not sure how it is there these days but it was lovely back then.

Lentilweaver · 02/01/2025 12:58

JimHalpertsWife · 02/01/2025 12:54

Depends what the set up at grandma/Mums houses are - some of these examples upthread sound lovely, but most (British) women with adult daughters still work full time.

Exactly. Many norms cannot be transplanted here.
I am rejigging my life so I dont have to send my mum into a home. Hope to work only part time by then.
Not possible for everyone.

MuddyPawsIndoors · 02/01/2025 13:02

There's a lot of husbands and grandfathers doing bugger all in many cultures.

The expectations and 'honour' usually befalls the women.

suburburban · 02/01/2025 13:03

JimHalpertsWife · 02/01/2025 12:54

Depends what the set up at grandma/Mums houses are - some of these examples upthread sound lovely, but most (British) women with adult daughters still work full time.

Exactly or we don't live nearby. I still work.

My dd doesn't want me to come straightaway

suburburban · 02/01/2025 13:03

MuddyPawsIndoors · 02/01/2025 13:02

There's a lot of husbands and grandfathers doing bugger all in many cultures.

The expectations and 'honour' usually befalls the women.

Yes, very convenient

MuddyPawsIndoors · 02/01/2025 13:05

And with state pension age rising, this isn't going to get any easier for those women.

Lentilweaver · 02/01/2025 13:06

MuddyPawsIndoors · 02/01/2025 13:02

There's a lot of husbands and grandfathers doing bugger all in many cultures.

The expectations and 'honour' usually befalls the women.

True. Though my dad helped and DH helped when he could. In general, I agree a lot of unpaid work done by women.

I find that on MN women want rigid boundaries because " It's my life!" but also want parental help. How does that work? Yesterday a poster was berated for expecting to hear about her son's engagement before it was announced on Insta. Apparently this is deeply controlling. I disagree.

Gwenhwyfar · 02/01/2025 13:08

JourneyToThePlacentaOfTheEarth · 02/01/2025 12:52

I stayed with my mum for a month after my first dc was born. She did everything- cooking cleaning bathing dc, helping with night feeds and dealing with visitors. Dh lived close by. In our culture (Nigerian) it is considered an honour for the grandma to do that because it's a blessing to have a grandchild. Usually grandma goes to stay with the new mum at her house but our flat in London was too small and already had visitors staying so I went to my mum. It was so helpful, especially because I was very sore with stitches and I hope to do similar for my dd one day.

My African friend had her mum live with her for a whole year after her second child was born. The gm did the childcare and all the shopping and cooking. The mother breast fed and planned the meals telling her DM what to shop for and cook.
When her DM left she went through a type of "post-natal" depression. Obviously not the hormonal type, but having to adapt to the demands of two children, having very little time to herself, etc.

Gwenhwyfar · 02/01/2025 13:11

TheUndoing · 02/01/2025 12:51

I think the thing is that to have a village, you need to contribute to the village too. So if you want your parents/in laws/friends to turn up support you when you have young kids you also need to be putting an awful lot of work to support others when they need it.

I think a lot of people these days believe they can set endless “boundaries” and engage with others only on exactly their own terms, but simultaneously expect a lot of support and help. I’m not saying having boundaries is a bad thing, just that people often don’t seem to accept that they come with consequences. If you don’t want your MIL in your house for 4 weeks after the birth and won’t let her kiss the baby, then she’s probably not going to want to scrub your loo and turn up
with endless meals…

There's a thread at the moment with a DM indignant at a grandfather giving the child a cake at Christmas!
If you're going to have extremely strict rules about how a child is brought up, you can't have them brought up by a village. Same goes for those who insist nobody can ever tell their child off for anything.

Lentilweaver · 02/01/2025 13:12

This is v common. Most of my Asian friends live in intergenerational families. But most also unhappy as there are no boundaries. Some appreciate the childcare.

I myself can live with my mum quite easily, but not with my MIL. That would be a step too far.

JourneyToThePlacentaOfTheEarth · 02/01/2025 13:12

Gwenhwyfar · 02/01/2025 13:08

My African friend had her mum live with her for a whole year after her second child was born. The gm did the childcare and all the shopping and cooking. The mother breast fed and planned the meals telling her DM what to shop for and cook.
When her DM left she went through a type of "post-natal" depression. Obviously not the hormonal type, but having to adapt to the demands of two children, having very little time to herself, etc.

A year seems like alot! That's just delaying the inevitable. Helping a daughter after childbirth is different from taking over parenting for a whole year

Gwenhwyfar · 02/01/2025 13:12

A couple I know were given food after they had twins. They then complained that the food was ready meals and not home made...

Gwenhwyfar · 02/01/2025 13:13

JourneyToThePlacentaOfTheEarth · 02/01/2025 13:12

A year seems like alot! That's just delaying the inevitable. Helping a daughter after childbirth is different from taking over parenting for a whole year

If it wasn't the DM, the baby would have been in creche anyway. The DM was not going to leave her job.

Lentilweaver · 02/01/2025 13:14

I find the outrage at GPs spoiling the kids a little or kissing them quite ridiculous. My mum and MIL gave my kids sugar, kissed them all over and disciplined them. I have no issues with any of that.

JourneyToThePlacentaOfTheEarth · 02/01/2025 13:16

Gwenhwyfar · 02/01/2025 13:13

If it wasn't the DM, the baby would have been in creche anyway. The DM was not going to leave her job.

That's true. I got alot of childcare help from my mum too but that's because she wasn't working. Lots of grandmas will be working full time until well over 60 years old

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