Different cultures approach after birth?

[Cornecopia]

Good morning guys. Following on from a thread I read earlier it has got me thinking…. A lady was upset that there hadn’t been much help after her baby had been born, ie people offering to clean her home/cooking her meals etc.
one comment said that the way people in England do things is ‘bordering on torterous’ meaning we are expected to have the baby, carry on as normal with minimal help from family and friends. I personally have 3DCs and had very little help from anyone when they were babies-but I didn’t expect it either (apart from their father of course)
this had me wondering how do other cultures do things?

My plan before DD was born was to get on with it and after maternity leave return to work full time (that's what most women do where I come from) but once I had to have EMCS and trying to recover from that with my DH working nights after initial 2 week holiday I called my mum who flew over for a few months which helped me enormously to recover and get my head around it all. It was not a problem for my DH as he comes from an African country and he is still generation where women take care of kids and men work. He would have flown over his mum after mine left to get me more help but my MIL is passed. We have a small flat so it was definitely too small for 3 adults and a baby but we just made it happen.
One of my DH's mates had second baby and his wife and two kids went to stay at her mum's while he stayed at their home and worked.
My SIL has two kids now and returning to work later this year so she is flying her mum (different mum to my DH) to help her with childcare for a few months but my FIL isn't going to stay at theirs and be involved in taking care of the kids. Having said that she is much younger than my DH and I can see her husband has slightly different approach to taking care of their kids and the divide between who does what/how things are done.

There are pros and cons to this.

Some of my cousins found it very claustrophobic, they wanted more privacy and to be able to get out and about but had women fussing over them 24/7

My Mum came to stay for 2 weeks to assist. Traditionally women don’t leave home for a month, I didn’t do that. It’s called sitting the month or zuoyuezi. I’m of Chinese descent but born in the UK. DH took his paternity leave and annual leave so I had a month of people around.

When my first English friend had a baby that lived locally to me I turned up with a big pot of home made Chicken stew, she was surprised but delighted. I just thought why on earth wouldn’t you help with nourishment as it’s tiring giving birth.

Had my DC in the Netherlands. DC1 had my full allowance for kraamzorg, who came in for 6 days after I came home from hospital. She prepared light meals (breakfast and lunch), did some laundry and housework like vacuuming and cleaning the kitchen, helped me to shower, checked my stitches. She also took my temperature and examined my abdomen to make sure everything was returning to normal. DC also weighed, examined and she helped us with bathing baby. She had lots of little tips and tricks for us too in those days of new parenthood to make our lives easier. DC2 was similar but I received less hours because they had massively reduced capacity, post COVID baby boom. I don't think it's ever returned to pre COVID days, I hear of alot of people having issues finding an agency that can give them any hours these days.

DH had 5 days paid paternity leave for DC1, 10 for DC2. Taken both times after the kraamzorg hours were used up.

The difference here is that we only get 16 weeks maternity leave and you have to start 4 weeks before your due date- you have to provide the official documentation from your midwife to your employer. Nothing added on if baby comes late. I went back 5 days a week 13 weeks after dc1 was born a week early. We did both get unpaid parental leave of 6 months to be used up until DC is 8, and this was improved by the time I had DC2 because 4 months of that are now paid at 70% of your salary. I used it 1 day a week from when DC1 was 1 to around 3 and all (paid and unpaid) straight after my mat leave with DC2 so I could stay off longer. Public holidays are lost during that time and your holiday allowance is calculated pro rata. You do get an allowance of 25% of your hours to breastfeed up until your baby is 9 months old too.

Honestly I think it's the best system in terms of what can reasonably be expected in the social contract. Obviously I would prefer if maternity leave was longer but if that was the case it may cause employers to be hesitant in hiring women of childbearing age. There really aren't many SAHMs around the place, they're certainly in the minority and it is very much limited to families with a comparatively lower socioeconomic status.

I'm not sure how I would have coped in another country to be honest. The social safety net is very very good for people like myself with no family on hand and no time or possibilities to build a village. I'm working so can't help others and everyone I know is working so can't help me. With all the working we can't really look for our villages anyway. I did as much as I could in terms of baby groups when I was on mat leave but it's so short it's not really possible to make meaningful connections. School is more the place for that I think.

@MuddyPawsIndoors
Statistics tell us that most men are financially supporting the family and a lot come home and support their wife and family too. It is easy to make snide comments about men but you cannot deny that statistically women (not me) give up economic employment earlier than men or never go back to full time work after having children.
There are two threads on MN at the moment from a single mother looking for a Provider. She wants this provider to ensure she never works outside the home and that she gets to stay home with her kid (not his).

@Supermonstermaniac that sounds really lovely, to be properly looked after like that.

Yes and then there's the expectation that whenever a family member has a baby, they'll have to return the favour.

I've known so many families fall out over that part.

Plus if the blokes are expected to do bugger all, who looks after their kids when they're off helping others?

@MuddyPawsIndoors DH helped with changing, night feeds, bathing etc. when he was not at work. My FIL and brothers helped finish a loft conversion and other home renovations during weekends and after work with DH to create more space for our growing family. Culturally it wouldn’t be common for my male relatives to be helping me bathe, clean my stitches, bring the babies in to my room at night for breastfeeding etc. I also personally wouldn’t feel comfortable with that sort of support from them.

@suburburban both MIL and DM were retired so had the time. One sister is a teacher and was on a long summer break, another SIL was at uni also with long break. However I do have friends whose mothers or female relatives would use some annual leave to support their daughters for a few weeks, and then move in over the weekends to help.

I'm asking posters to answer, not 'statistics'.

That's surely what chat forums are for?

And I'm not being 'snide' as you so politely put it. I'm trying to get to the bottom of what these men do after work and at weekends, when the women are busy rushing round after other women.

Ooooo what’s the thread please called I’d like to read it

I'm British but have Scandinavian family and from what I can see the systems set up by the state facilitate family life so the generous paternity leave, lots of local services for new parents, an expectation that parents can leave work at a set time, basically not an issue to have children and work.

I will look for them. One is called Sprinkle, Sprinkle after a TIK Tok movement to find men who are financial providers and who are prepared to pay for everything.
Also from the poster who is not interested in empirical evidence (statistics) but in chat, most of the posters above rely on their husbands for support. I know I did.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5242712-remarried-and-stay-at-home-wife

I follow a South Korean youtuber and when she had her baby the government send round a post partum nurse to do everything for the family, including cooking and cleaning as well as helping with the infant. I think she stayed for 10 days, all paid for by the government.

And I am glad I am from such a culture 😊
I am.pretty Westernised, but I don't really identify with a lot of Western mores around childrearing. It seems lonely and hard to me. Right after a hard labour, I would much rather have my mum to show me how to breastfeed and bathe the baby than my DH. He stepped in later. There's 18 years for him to step up!

My mum was working at the time but part time.

Oh I could go on for days about the differences in my culture (gypsy). The first few that spring to mind

You don't talk about anything to do with the birth when men/children are present.
Fun fact, we don't use the word pregnant, it's seen as rude.
You get lots of visitors in the first couple of weeks.
Your mum/sisters will do all your cleaning for you in the lead up to and the time following your birth.
Breastfeeding is extremely rare.

Same here. I'm so glad to be from a culture where women step up to care for other women after childbirth. It doesn't mean husbands don't help, they do and should. But they're often as confused and exhausted as new mums so it's great to have someone to learn from and to help out. I'm proud to be British and love British culture but I hope to keep this tradition alive for my dd, dil and other women in my life - but only if they want the help, it's not something you can force

@JourneyToThePlacentaOfTheEarth although mine are still very young I'm trying to put things in place so that I can be there for them if and when the time comes, DH and I do feel very alone at times although we're lucky we're a good team.

Mine and DHs DPs are all of the generation where they could stay at home, retire early and received help from their own DPs but chose not to help us or our siblings because they value their own time more. It's their choice and also ours to have our DCs but it's still a bitter pill to swallow considering myself and my older siblings did spend many many many hours of our own childhoods looking after our younger siblings. I would really love to be able to support my DCs in a way that I'm not supported myself. It's hard out here and it doesn't have to be like this. I wonder if this is something that will change between baby boomers and gen xers/ millennials?

I find this interesting. Maybe it’s a cultural thing or maybe I’m pathologically stubborn, but I can’t imagine anything worse than having a load of relatives descend after I’d given birth. I love my family dearly but I think we all need our space!

My husband is from a culture where a more involved approach is the norm and I have struggled to tread the line between not offending my MIL and generally wishing for her to stay away when I have a newborn to get to grips with. 😬

A good friend of mine is Indian and had her eldest at the same time as me, and I ended up finding it quite offensive when she kept asking why my mum hadn’t come to stay (she works FT) and how on earth was I coping (alright, thanks).

Editing to add - I don’t want to sound ungrateful at all, which I think I do! But I think everyone’s idea of what’s helpful is so different.

I do see people on here frequently complaining about the lack of “village” and help after baby is born but at the same time wanting to have strict rules and boundaries around other people’s input after baby is born.

I saw a post on Facebook today about how we shouldn’t be buying baby clothes as gifts now as that is something fun for the mum to buy and if other people want to help they can buy nappies.
Now it seems that you can’t expect to see the baby for the first month at least and when you do get to see them you absolutely can’t expect to hold them. Not many people are willing to drop home cooked meals off and scrub your toilet without any of the fun bits associated with new babies.

@Hoolaboo I know lots of British Indian women who love the being fussed over by their mum thing but I also know lots who absolutely hated the idea or the reality of it.

It can be difficult when what you want or need isn't what your cultural norms dictate.

Some of my cousins did the not leave the house for a month, waited on hand and foot by their mum thing and could not wait to choose their own food and get out for a walk.

@Tessiebeare but nobody is offering to scrub toilets or cook dinner when they come to play instagrandparent either. They want to be hosted by the new parents, one of whom has possibly just had surgery in the last few days or weeks, while they hoard the new human who only needs to be attached to their mother for as long as possible. It seems ludicrous really.

Yes, I can imagine it might be really restrictive if it doesn’t suit your personality! I found my MIL’s constant (what I perceived as) fussing to be pretty annoying, but I was fortunate that we had no space for her to move herself in. She wanted me to sit around and be waited on, but that would be my personal idea of torture - although I can see that it would have been very helpful if I’d have had more difficult births.

The majority of people have paid holiday though. Maybe there are 0.05% who are self employed or have an evil boss that won’t let them book a week off at a time but most people can take paid time off to help their own family if they choose to.

There should definitely be more discussion about postpartum recovery and how best to support mothers with newborns. I was really shocked about the toll that my first baby took on my fit and healthy body- I felt like I’d been through a car crash and was shellshocked, and this was after a relatively straightforward birth! I could have been better prepared and I wish I’d understood the support that I needed. I’m afraid I did feel uncared for- we had visitors but only the kind that I had to look presentable for and no one to support me. I did have my lovely husband but he wasn’t really what I needed