trans masculine non-binary

[myslippersarepink]

The daily fail headline is Oppenheimer star Emma Dumont comes out as trans masculine non-binary and reveals new name
I won't link.

But what does trans masculine non binary mean?

Doesn't non binary mean you're neither of the two sexes? What is trans masculine? A trans man? If so, why use different words? And what do the two things mean together?

I'm so confused 😵‍💫

Sure, I'm the only one here that knows my friend. But I'm at least talking from a sample size of 1, whereas most people here who are using unpleasant words to describe non-binary transmasculine people are saying that they don't know any, so are talking from a sample size of 0.

There's no such thing as "non binary" in any scientific sense, it's just an identity label. Your friend is female, however inconvenient that is.

There are lots of photos of Jude under their old name and presenting as female still online.
I always thought of Jude as a transman but for some reason only noticed recently that they didn't mention that about themselves.
I wish them nothing but the best as they seem to carry a lot of pain with them.
I found an article online where Jude is talking about their business and being a transman, hoping to have her breasts removed at the end of 2023.
I find it completely heartbreaking and morally questionable though that a Dr would allow Jude to make such a huge desicion and have a life altering surgery like that right after losing not just one, but both parents unexpectedly. That does seem absolutely wrong to me and I hope Jude is receiving lots of therapy and help.

Abbie Barnes the hiker is another one presenting as non binary that had top surgery this year. Another absolutely lovely person, but has always seemed in a world of pain and still does. I felt so sad after she had her surgery, got back to walking and said she she felt there was something still not right and missing. Abbie comes across a nd lesbian trying to navigate a career in a predominantly mans world and coupled with her religion has naturally struggled.
A recent video showed them getting really upset being at a conference because Abbie's name badge showed her pronouns and Abbie couldn't understand why people still talked to her as a woman. There seems to be a lack of understanding that cutting off breasts does not remove womanhood.
I wish I could understand but I can't get my head around it and questions around why the default to non binary seems to be removing female parts are always shut down.

I wish I could understand but I can't get my head around it and questions around why the default to non binary seems to be removing female parts are always shut down.

Exactly, while the default for male non binary is wearing a blouse.

I don't know who this person is but I can answer your questions a bit about trans-masc/nb.
This is pretty much how our young adult DD identifies. Has never said she is transmasc, but is non-binary and more to the male side of things. Wants a masectomy one day (we are not supportive of this) and tells me she doesn't like being 'seen' as female by society although she has never really articulated why this is the case and gets v defensive if I push it.
Hasn't taken any hormones yet, but dresses more like a bloke and wears boxers most of the time. Is a lesbian and would say 'I am a lesbian', which means she is a girl who likes girls (so a bit confusing on that front).
My views are she is neurodiverse (not fully diagnosed but has had educational-level assessment of ADHD), wasn't treated well by some friends at school (probably due to being being 'awkward') so felt on the 'outside' which probably fostered feelings of being 'not like the other girls'. She was never girly so I think once she discovered 'trans' she felt this fit her way of 'being' and slotted herself in to this once at uni and had left school where it would've been very hard to identify as a different gender.
I'll never be supportive of any drastic change ie, hormones or surgery, but when it's your offspring, who you are close to, you have to try and be neutral at best to preserve that relationship. It's all v well thinking privately it's a load of BS, but do you want a harmonious relationship with your child or not? Of course I look at old pics of DD and think how lovely she looked with long hair, in dresses, etc but those days are long gone and I just look back in wistful sadness.
Hope this helps a bit!
Edited to say DD has a great personality - is witty, clever, artistic and creative so def not someone who needs to latch on to something to make them look 'cool' or whatever.

Who funds the voluntary non-essential mastectomy? Am assuming not the cash strapped NHS?

It's just nonsense. She is attention-seeking.

Cats can't be vegan, dogs can tho :)
Well they can, be if you really wanted to make it really sick cat then die a premature death .

No, I sound like I can't keep up with the ever changing made up descriptions that I don't understand anymore.

To quote Katie Hopkins 'You can identify as anything you like, but don't require me to think what you think'. You knew them as female and were then forced to indulge them and required to think what they think. The pronouns went against every fibre of your instincts so much, that you kept getting it wrong. You seem to see that part as a minor insignificance but if this was such a natural conclusion, why did you keep getting it wrong? Because your subconscious was being forced to retrain something that went against all its instincts. From childhood you've always known what was male or female, then one day someone comes along and wants you to think what they think, so you have to start retraining your own subconscious and tripping over yourself for fear of offending they/them/those. Surely you can see there's an element of controlling of other people going on there? It isn't just about they/them. It's also about controlling what other people think/say, so much so that people are now getting death threats and being dragged through courts for refusing to indulge.

Do they get treated like a man instead? We’re all actually one or the other, (even if we’d prefer to be the opposite…); nobody literally gets to opt out.

It sounds very much like a lot of women are opting out of the very narrow view of what it is to be female nowadays? I don't blame them. When did that happen?

I was at school in the 90's. Girls had all kinds of hairstyles. Long and very short. We could wear skirts or trousers and alternated between so many different looks. It seems now that all the girls at my local schools have to have very long hair, extremely short skirts, wear make up a certain way and if they don't conform to this then are thought of as different, and it's a case of be bullied or just claim to be trans? This just seems crazy.

Men seem to have a very narrow view of women and how they should look now as well. Is this all down to porn? Is it down to so much time spent online?

It just feels like we've gone backwards a bit and is so depressing.

I see the pressure on adult women to look a certain way as well if they mix within certain crowds and again it just makes me sad. I don't feel like we are more accepting of people's differences but instead people are being put into smaller and smaller boxes.
I was a bit of a tomboy when younger, liked what is thought of now as more masculine pursuits and also had mental health problems to boot. I dread to think what life would be like for me as a teenager now.

Yep.

The reason I'm not friends with any trans people isn't because I won't give them a chance. Its because I won't partake in their delusional state with them and they're often intolerant of that.

They may be a lovely person but they don't generally want to be friends with me because if they're a woman I'm going to accurately refer to them as a woman/female/she/her and vice versa if they're a man. There are no other sexes. I don't care if someone identifies as a man/woman or whatever else. We can all feel how we feel and I can accept how they feel feels real to them, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. I don't accept it as fact though, because it literally biologically isn't and I'm not going to lie to anyone in order to validate their feelings.

I don't accept anyone trying to erode women's rights or damaging children which the trans movement as a whole is doing (not necessarily an individual trans person is doing that, I'll judge people on their personality and behaviour). Some trans people have a problem with me not supporting the trans movement in general which makes us incompatible with being friends, since I'm unwilling to be friends with someone who has a problem with me.

Well, Emma has come out as someone who is transgender, specifically masculine transgender, but also not binary so not masculine or feminine. To me personally, it's impossible to be both masculine and not masculine. But that's just genuinely my opinion.

I've come out as a trans man, meaning yes I am biologically female, but I genuinely feel male, and choose to live my life in a way that makes me feel male. However I don't push this onto other people because it's my life choice, not theirs.

My ex came out as an entirely different species. One that, unless proven otherwise, is a myth and doesn't actually exist.

However I can admit and accept that all of these can be connected via mental health. I can't say that I've lived my life feeling like I'm another sex and then say my mental health is perfect, so yeah I get why a lot of people would group as all together.

Surely you can’t be non binary and then add a binary label? It makes no logical sense and just screams of attention seeking. The thing is, the majority of people don’t care about indepth understanding of who you are, who you’re sexually attracted to or how you feel - we honestly just don’t care about people to that degree. It’s like a heterosexual person meeting someone and instantly describing what clothes they like wearing and what features they find attractive. It’s fucking weird level of detail.

“Hi, I’m Jane and I like to wear dresses and fancy men with floppy hair who look like Jonathan Bailey” isn’t how any normal person would introduce themselves, yet this is basically the level of detail trans people insist on sharing. We don’t care 🤷🏻‍♀️ not because we’re excluding you but because it’s more detail than we need. It’s so egocentric.

I’m genuinely intrigued what “feeling male” is like? My Dh is not a “lad” but still make, very different to other males. He’s creative, does the family laundry and happily runs the Dyson round. He works very successfully in a female dominated career. Another bloke might be drinking points in the pub every night. Another might be a builder. I’m unclear what feeling like a gender feels like. I’m not trying to be antagonistic, I’m really keen to understand better.

I genuinely don’t understand what you mean by feeling male. You don’t have male anatomy so how can you feel male?

I get that you don’t feel that you have anything to do with stereotypical female behaviour and presentation, but I don’t see how that means you aren’t female, and certainly can’t see how it means you’re male.

That's fine, I don't mind questions 🙂
For me personally, it's more of a physically body issue. It started when I started puberty - I hated the changes my body was going through to the point of needing therapy. I'm genuinely jealous/envious of men naturally having a male body, and finally started to feel more accepting of my body once I went on Testosterone - my voice deepened, I grew facial hair, my periods stopped completely and I had what's called bottom growth.

I'm definitely not a "lad" either though and will happily avoid several blokey activities for a nice quiet life.

A woman with short hair, whatever next?

but I genuinely feel male, and choose to live my life in a way that makes me feel male
Can you expand on this a little? Is there actually anything specific that makes you “feel male” (assuming you could possible know how that feels) beyond the usual forcing others to use male pronouns?
I’m assuming forcing your way into male toilets doesn’t feature?

@Goatymum that sounds really difficult to navigate as a parent, but it sounds like you are doing the right thing. I'll be honest and say it's something i really fear as my own grow up.

I don't force others to use male pronouns. Of course on the days I "pass" I'm elated when someone does use them, but I don't correct anyone who uses female pronouns. I see it as my choice and not a choice I make for everyone else around me.

With the toilet issue, I have a disability so I use the disabled toilets but if I had to make a choice between ladies and mens then I would choose the mens, because I'm aware that some people do see me as male at first glance, others can see that I'm female, and I would never want to cause any kind of trauma or upset for a SA victim.

But feeling male is hard to explain. I guess if I asked you to imagine yourself walking through a park or the woods, you'd probably imagine yourself as you are, but I would automatically imagine myself in a biologically male body. I guess it's one of those things where I can't fully imagine what it's like to feel male because I'm not male, and I also can't explain what it feels like to feel like a trans male to someone who isn't.

Does the fact that you don’t have a biologically male body not expose this for the fantasy that it is?
I can imagine myself as a tall, thin blue eyed blond, if I choose to, but it doesn’t alter what other people actually see when they look at me 🤷🏻‍♀️

The people who use male pronouns are just being polite, btw.
They don’t actually see you as male.

Thanks @Dontlletmedownbruce - I won't lie, it's been a tough 3.5 years and at the beginning I panicked and thought that she would immediately take hormones and start wanting to look like a guy etc, but she still wears earrings (big hoops sometimes), jewellery, perfume, a bit of make up sometimes and some women's tops (for the fit). Def looks nothing like a bloke, looks more like a butch lesbian (I appreciate that most lesbians aren't butch, but I have known some that dress in a very manly fashion with short hair).
When she was a young teen I did worry about this happening as she was very non-typical girl, but nothing too out of the ordinary. Weirdly her then best friend was 'more' androgynous (wore boys' shoes and never a skirt unless absolutely had to as part of a uniform) but ended up not being trans at all!
Try not to worry, there's not much you can do except just reiterate that anyone from either sex can play with/dress with/do what they want and it doesn't matter, and if you have girls, that they don't have to conform esp as they get older.

Did you split up because your ex was identifying as a different species. I mean I just about get identifying as another human gender, but an animal or fictional animal/character - no! That is 100% a mental health issue all of its own (I'm on the fence as to whether trans is a mental health issue, I think it probably depends on various factors).