Young, British and Anti Abortion.

[TooBigForMyBoots]

I was half watching it last night and intend to watch properly later. The guy they featured was a misogynistic Incel type.

Did anyone else see it?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00256p2

It's quite disturbing that a wanted baby is a baby. But if not then it's a fetus and not alive and not human.

Stop with the emotive language. A baby can survive without intervention outside the womb.

Totally agree with you (& @Vinni8) who said something similar.

I absolutely hate the utter idiots on both sides who just implacably sick to their ridiculous argument that make no sense.

A foetus is not a baby - yes it is. Of course it is. Trying telling the millions of women who miscarry that they’ve just mis-carried a ball of cells so to SFU. The ridiculousness that it’s a baby if wanted and a foetus if not is just plain daft. It’s a human. There isn’t a partial human state.

It is equally problematic to say that someone else gets to decide if a disabled human’s life is ‘worth’ living or not. It’s totally unacceptable.

It is also totally unacceptable morally and legally to say that a human has to provide their body in the service of another. We don’t force people to hand over organs, blood or any other bodily function to maintain someone’s else’s life. Human's are never life support machines for other humans.

Equally we are allowed morally and legal to defend our own lives by taking action to prevent our own death. So if a human is threatening the life of another, even if it is entirely unintentionally, we are allowed to defend our own lives.

All other arguments are illogical and stupid but the stupidest one of all is that it’s not a human life because it is. Pretending otherwise is just idiotic, has no basis in science and gives ammunition to the misogynists who do want to control women’s body.

I really hope the family sue the state (not the doctor because it’s not their fault) but the state. I hope they sue for whatever the American equivalent of wrongful
death is.
It’s unbelievable that judges ….allegedly intelligent people have allowed this lunacy

A few have summed up what I was trying to say. An unborn child is and unborn child, whether you decide to terminate or the decision to give birth is taken from you. However, no one should be forced to carry a child they don’t want in any circumstance.

There is no correct answer here, each society must answer to what they are comfortable with.

However, many cases are very very clear cut. Some are caught on camera via CCTV and DNA evidence, it’s not a like for like comparison. Why not like a man like Wayne Couzens, who absolutely did it, no question?

Why should you pay to keep a man like that alive?

I've had four children, two miscarriages and two abortions. I wouldn't hesitate to have another one if I accidentally fell pregnant.

Both abortions were because I wasn't in the right place emotionally, physically and financially at the time and birth control failed.

Did I want to have them? Of course not. But I also didn't want to bring a child into the world that wouldn't have the best start in life, or would have negative impacted the lives of my existing children.

My miscarriages were before 10 weeks and were very much wanted pregnancies. They were still embryos/foetuses and not babies. My beautiful living children were foetuses until the moment they came out of my body and could breathe for themselves and exist without depending on my body. Yes, I called them babies because I had bonded with them while pregnant.They were still foetuses though. I never called my aborted pregnancies babies because I didn't have that bond because I knew that I wasnt going to give birth to them.

As someone above put it, I didn't kill anything. I took medication to stop me being their life support system in the same way that people make the decision to turn off life support. They're not killing anyone either.

I support the choice of any woman when it comes to being a life support system. If they want to continue with a pregnancy, brilliant. Let me support you and help you in any way I can. Want to not be a life support system for a foetus or embryo? OK. Let me know how I can support you.

The thing is, I would no more call it a "foetus" if it is a much wanted pregnancy that has sadly miscarried, than I would a "baby" if it is an unwanted pregnancy that the woman chose to terminate.

Technically it is a foetus, but for a woman who wants to be pregnant and who feels an immediate bond, of course to her it is a baby, and no one would be pedantic about insisting it's a foetus, even if it's the correct legal definition. A wanted pregnancy is a baby in our hearts and minds, of course it is. Which is why it's so manipulative for anti-abortionists to talk about "killing babies".

No one is saying a foetus is not human 🙄 You get human foetus, human babies, and other animal foetus and babies.

It's not dehumanising, it really isn't, it's the correct medical term.

Because for every Wayne Couzens there will be a Stefan Kiszko, or an Andrew Malkinson. And for me, the only acceptable number of innocent people executed by mistake is 0. Anything else shows a complete lack of morals.

Honestly, if you value the sanctity of life, why not focus on things like disease cures, workplace safety laws, the quality of healthcare or even addressing death penalty and gun ownership laws in foreign countries?

What’s the value in forcing vulnerable women who may already be in poverty, have mental health issues, in a DV situation or just too old (or young) to bring another child into the world? In my family, one of the male elders slept around and he preyed on a 13 year old kid who was a tutoring student of his. She got pregnant and of course back then there was no choice but for her to have the baby. She had lifelong mental health struggles after that. Poor kid. Thankfully I have never met this odious male relative.

I support leaving English law it stands which includes a right to abort a foetus with disabilities up to 40 weeks of gestation and other foetuses earlier. It is a reasonable compromise. However the UK respects other views which is why eg Catholic doctors are not obliged by the NHS to carry out abortions if they do not choose to do so. If science advances hugely nor would I have a problem if the foetus could be removed from the mother and the father carry it or have it carried elsewhere as long as the mother was not obliged to be legally responsible for it nor to pay for it - science has not got that far as yet.

I think the law here is pretty good, as is the new law in NZ which is very similar. And of course nobody wants more abortions. I'm as pro choice as they come, and I'd like to see 0 abortions. I'm also realist enough to know that will never happen, so I want safe, legal abortion and I also want excellent sex education, easy and very affordable contraception (which needs to improve to be more reliable), I want men to accept that they also have a responsibility for contraception, so no more refusing to wear a condom, I want doctors to accept it when a woman of childbearing age asks to be sterilised, I want support for women who decide to continue a pregnancy (whether unplanned or not) by providing truly affordable childcare and housing. I want all those things because they will reduce the number of abortions.

What I don't want is a ban, because it will achieve nothing but an increase in the number of dead women.

If the pro-birth crowd genuinely believed in life at conception they'd be far more bothered about the 1/4 of pregnancies that spontaneously abort before 12 weeks, not to mention the myriad other ways pregnancies end aside from abortion. In my first pregnancy I had a placental abruption at 40 weeks, crash c section and 'unexpected apparent stillbirth'. My baby was resuscitated but it was touch and go for weeks and she suffered lasting damage. I've had three subsequent pregnancies, including one miscarriage. You better believe they were wanted but I never thought of them as babies, never announced the pregnancies, refused any gifts until they were safely here. It's a fetus till it's born. Then it's a baby. And every woman has the right to choose.

For me, leaving aside the question of when life begins, how would we as a society cope with all the enforced pregnancies and unwanted children?

Going by the decreasing birth rate there are increasing amounts of the population that want nothing to do with childbearing. What sort of support would we be able to provide for the mental health of the women forced into something they fundamentally don't want? Our maternity and postnatal care can be traumatic enough for women with wanted pregnancies.

I've mentioned how disadvantaged looked after children are, would these groups also be campaigning for more funding to help these people?

I think many of us have heard the narrative that there are many people desperate to adopt. I don't doubt that there are plenty of wonderful adoptive parents but would the numbers match up in this scenario? Is that something pro-life groups have factored into their vision for what they want to happen?

Personally whatever I think about abortion I can't imagine how we'd manage practically as a society in a situation where it was banned.

If pro lifers were truly focused on the sanctity of life then they would have much more success in the reduction of abortions if they put their efforts into the sex education of this country, more initiatives for contraception, fought for parental rights in the workplace and better access to child services.

They don't want better maternity rights, affordable childcare or widespread sex education, they just want to harass vulnerable women and screech 'murderer' At them

I mean, that’s why they want it banned because they really don’t have good answers to any of those questions. They think it will all work out, which is why I’m always saying they are hopelessly naive. Nice people but incredibly blind to secondary consequences

The fuss is about the end of hope. The loss of what might have been. For those who access abortion, the feeling is often one of relief.

Factually it is not a person. It is a bunch of cells, an embryo and in rare cases, a foetus.

Are you so obtuse that you cannot see the difference in women's individual circumstances and feelings? Or understand the difference between feelings and facts?

Cheers for that. I'm sorry you left the thread.

I don't have Instagram.

No. I don't believe that I could ever have gone through with having an abortion myself.

But I believe passionately in the right of other women to make choices about what to do with their bodies.

If you're anti-abortion you're also anti-consent. If you think a woman should forced to carry on with a pregnancy against her will you're doing so against her consent. What's the difference in forcing a woman to carry a baby to term and then forcing her to give birth and a man forcing a woman to have sex?

There have always been vacuous young people. Young people are by their nature, naive and unpleasant people will seek to exploit that.

Fortunately most grow out of it with age and experience.

1. Because Couzens shouldn't be allowed to escape a life sentence through an early death. Sara's family will endure life sentences of grief and pain, he should get a life sentence too.
2. Because one person's definition of "clearcut" isn't the same as another person's. Some would regard a confession or a guilty plea as "clearcut" even though many people make false confessions. Some might say that DNA evidence makes it "clearcut" even though lab mistakes happen and some murderers have identical twins.
3. Because jurors are already supposed to be "sure beyond reasonable doubt" to convict, so by definition there shouldn't be a need for two classes of convicted murderer, the "clearcut" ones and the "not clearcut" ones. The "not clearcut" ones shouldn't have been convicted in the first place.
4. Corollary to (3): sometimes juries do get it wrong and that's why we have an appeals system. The executed prisoner cannot appeal, nor can he be released with an apology and compensation if his conviction is quashed.

They are mourning the baby they were hoping to give birth to in the future.