Young, British and Anti Abortion.

[TooBigForMyBoots]

I was half watching it last night and intend to watch properly later. The guy they featured was a misogynistic Incel type.

Did anyone else see it?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00256p2

Thank you x

Young, British and anti-abortion?

Great, don't have an abortion then. At least you have the choice though.

I've always been against abortion for myself in that I've tried very hard not to find myself in a circumstance where I might need one.

But am very glad that the option is there for anyone who needs it.

Any woman who has experienced miscarriage care has experienced an abortion. What these backwards looking idiots don't realise is they are denying women essential healthcare that can ultimately lead to the end of women's lives due to infection and blood loss. How dare these religious fundamentalists feel they can use distressing imagery to emotionally blackmail people.

What right does a young gay/confused man have to dictate what happens to women's bodies and call it a religious belief?

I agree with this. However, I am always curious way people are so adamant that foetus is just a group of cells etc, but if I a woman has a miscarriage it’s is acceptable to be sad mourn the loss of that child. It can’t be both things imo, we can accept that abortion is an unfortunate but sometimes necessary ending of human life, and still recognise it as a life. As has been said, abortion will always exhaust and it much better for everyone that this is done in a safe way.

'Iam always curious way people are so adamant that foetus is just a group of cells etc, but if I a woman has a miscarriage it’s is acceptable to be sad mourn the loss of that child. It can’t be both things imo,'

I think it absolutely can be both things. A woman mourning the miscarriage of a wanted pregnancy isn't mourning the cluster of cells, they're mourning a baby that would have been born at some future point.

Watching it now. Love the street artist in Trafalgar Square - he gets it! Eden does not come across well here.

An 18 year old woman recently died in America ( sorry, can’t remember the State) Pregnant, the baby (24 weeks gestation) had no detectable heartbeat and the woman had sepsis. Doctors were too scared to do a C section in case they were accused of aborting. That compromised the treatment of the mother resulting in her death.
Thank goodness every pregnant woman in the UK has the right to choose. It’s not my decision, your decision, a man’s decision, it’s hers alone. And we all have to fight to protect the law that gives women that right.

I think that Eden thought (given the lack of critical thinking on show in the documentary) that a site called Mumsnet would be in total agreement with her, hence appearing on the thread.

That went well.

Mourning a miscarriage I am sure is mourning what could have been. Maybe a much longed for baby, maybe taken years to conceive. maybe a surprise pregnancy. Who knows? And does it matter, it’s a loss that is individual to each person.

Edens real lack of critical thinking in the piece said it all for me, also not being able to see her arguments were in fact pro-choice. It would be amusing if she weren't so influential.

That's a very good point, but not something it's easy to discuss. A while back, I saw a pregnant woman smoking. I found it really hard to rationalise her "right" and her choice. And yet I would absolutely support her decision to terminate the pregnancy if she wanted to (up to a certain number of weeks).

PoupeeGonflable · Today 07:59
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... a lot of pro-abortion people tend to forget that we are all very good-intentioned people and really want the best for mothers, fathers and their babies...

What rubbish!

I was 18 when I terminated an 8 week pregnancy. In a relationship with a man I already knew I did not love, had I gone through with it I would have been condemned to marriage, life in poor social housing with inadequate income and few opportunities with a man with limited ambition.
Instead, I made my choice - which was absolutely the right one. I continued in education, progressed well, went on to have a decent career before meeting and marrying a man I loved - and still very much do 35 years later. We had two marvellous children, now great people and enjoy our grandchild.

The first scenario was most definitely not “the best” for me, for the father or for the potential child. The second most definitely was.

Yes exactly this.

My abortion (pregnancy resulting from rape by a relative) was, biologically speaking the same as the babies I caried to term in the early stages. And biologically the same as the baby I miscarried at 8 weeks.

But psychologically they were very different. And I have to think of the aborted foetus as a foetus not a baby to protect my own mental health.

I agree with you but there’s a difference between disapproving of something and thinking it should be illegal.

At what point (in your opinion) does life begin?

100 years ago this was an easy answer (in my opinion) a new life begins at birth when a foetus becomes a baby. When instead of being almost parasitic in its nature, the newborn is able to survive outside of the womb.
The ethical dilemma in 21century; the spectacular medical advances which can now keep a 23 week neonate alive (33%) 24 weeks (65%) and by 30 weeks there is now approximately 96-98% (depending on which stats you use) chance of survival. In 1924 this was not an option (although in 1903 in the US you could pay to view a neonate in an incubator, it wasn't until the 1950s they became more commonplace, even then it was only slightly premature babies who survived).
Even when there is significant risk and very good medical reason to end the pregnancy post 24 weeks, I can't imagine any woman would take this option lightly, in fact I can't imagine anything more traumatic, isolating or gut wrenching, than having to make this decision, which ultimately only the woman can make.

To use the term baby when it's technically a foetus is as emotive and repugnant as me using the term parasite (it lives off the host and can't survive without the host or medical intervention before 22 weeks) language matters.

Abortions have and always will be a part of life, for centuries they were underground, and for centuries women died often very long, protracted painful deaths, do we really want to go backwards when we've come so far forwards as a society?

For all of those women who have had to go through this .
To those of you who have had premature babies I hope my post hasn't offended you and I hope your journeys go as smoothly as possible
For all those who are against abortion try and understand nuance, life is never black and white; none of us know how our lives might flow, despite our best intentions, sometimes the toughest decisions are the best decisions for individual circumstances, and it's no one else's place to judge.

What a fascinating link. Very eye-opening.

I do not "like" abortion. It is not a decision I think I would make for myself unless for extreme medical reasons. So if I became pregnant by rape I think I would not have one. That's because I don't know when life begins so I'd rather not end something that might be alive/in some way human.

BUT I think abortions need to be legal. For a start, when they are not dangerous situations arise e.g women being denied necessary care because doctors are afraid it might count as an abortion. Or, less extreme and I imagine more common, when the woman's life would be indirectly endangered e.g. possibly being cast out by family. Or just women that feel under tremendous pressure for whatever reason and choose to risk an illegal and poorly regulated procedure.

I would love it if there were many fewer abortions. The number that occur is very high and some women have (to me) a surprisingly high number.

To me, it seems the best solution is NOT to restrict access to abortions. But to offer women as many alternatives as possible.

Easier access to contraception, including the pill or long term hormonal methods I.e. those an abusive man might not know were being taken. More research into long term contraception for men (assuming they are willing to take it, I know this is an issue). Encouraging more men to have vasectomies when they have finishedhaving children. Making the morning after pill and pregnancy tests very easy to get, perhaps in schools.

I'd also liketo see much more support offered to women who chose to keep the baby. If i became pregnant I would like to have the option to carry the baby to term and then give it up - it's not like there's a shortage of people that want to adopt a healthy newborn. But this is really not encouraged.

Basically if like more women to not feel that they HAVE to have an abortion, and for that to cause there to be fewer abortions, or for those that occur to be as early as possible. But I accept that it is necessary for abortion to be available without too many questions asked because of the awful predicaments some women find themselves in.

I do find that some posters on mumsnet accuse anyone who thinks an abortion isn't a totally neutral choice that is fine for absolutely any reason of being a monster and a mysogynist, or a brain-washed idiot.

Can we have the discussion without name calling and insults? All laws should be discussed and reviewed and considered over time and people need to feel free to express their opinion.

I saw an Instagram post from an American man which said:

You can store an embryo in a freezer. You can't store a baby in a freezer. That's how you can be sure there is a difference between the two..

Now I appreciate this is a tongue in cheek over simplification but the man makes a fair point...

How many innocent people killed by the death penalty would be too many for you? There is a correct answer.

Absolute bullshit. I had a procedure to remove a dead baby from my body, not end the life of a living one.

The procedure you (and I) experienced is the same procedure used in abortion care. It is the same procedure these zealots are advocating is ended.

And the same procedure that was denied women in the US and Poland, leading to the deaths of women. The forced birthers either won't see or don't care that banning abortion kills women. I suspect it's the latter.

And women who have miscarriages? If it’s just a foetus, what’s all the fuss about? They can just crack on then because it’s just a foetus. A ball of unimportant cells. I’ve never heard a women say I’ve miscarriage a foetus.