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Young, British and Anti Abortion.

291 replies

TooBigForMyBoots · 21/11/2024 15:32

I was half watching it last night and intend to watch properly later. The guy they featured was a misogynistic Incel type.

Did anyone else see it?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00256p2

BBC One - Young, British and Anti-Abortion

Film-maker Poppy Jay explores whether Gen Z are galvanising the UK anti-abortion movement.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00256p2

OP posts:
SuperfluousHen · 22/11/2024 08:54

RingoJuice · 22/11/2024 08:05

Individual human life begins at conception. We can recognize that fact and still say abortion is okay, because it was positive social effects.

Like euthanasia is a deliberate cessation of human life, but we can recognize it has social benefits.

(Likewise I advance that the death penalty has social benefits too)

I really appreciate the honesty that some advocates of abortion show when they don’t shy away from the undeniable scientific fact that human life does begin at conception.

FudgeSundae · 22/11/2024 08:54

I am very pro choice. I’m also staggered by the number of abortions in this country (about a quarter of pregnancies are terminated) and generally think abortion is something we should try to decrease the incidence of, not by making women carry on with unwanted pregnancies but by helping them not occur. That means better access to better contraception. For instance, why do we not offer all teenagers the implant/coil?!

HardenYourHeart · 22/11/2024 08:55

flagondry · 21/11/2024 22:08

This whole debate comes down to 2 beliefs.

  1. Do you believe the unborn are human?
  2. Do you believe all innocent humans should have the equal right to life?
My answer to both these questions is yes. Whereas a pro-abortion advocate would disagree with one or both of the above beliefs. So put yourself in my shoes: you believe unborn humans are fully human and fully deserving of equal human rights - that includes the right not to be killed. With that being said, it is wrong to force someone to kill their unborn baby. But it is not wrong to force a mother not to kill her unborn baby. I hope this makes sense and answers your question! :)

Tell that to the kids who just lost their mom, who died for nothing, because of some stupid laws that denied her life-saving medical care.

PoupeeGonflable · 22/11/2024 08:58

RingoJuice · 22/11/2024 08:46

Society doesn’t have to keep paying for the continued upkeep of a convicted murderer?

Pretty huge benefit if you ask me, I don’t want to pay to keep dangerous people in a cage under 24/7 security and pay for their food, housing and medical care.

I just want them gone, buried and forgotten about.

Yes, this would apply if there was no appeal process. But as you well know, in most countries where there is a death penalty, inmates spend years and years waiting for appeals to be heard etc, so the taxpayer is spending just as much.
You have some pretty skewed thinking if you agree with no abortion at all and the death penalty

Bumpitybumper · 22/11/2024 08:58

Completelyjo · 22/11/2024 07:30

A surprising number of young men were anti abortion in Ireland and NI. I was pretty shocked when some of my friends views came out during the referendum and the push to bring UK law to NI. Some accepted that the majority of women in their life supported the legislative changes and so voted with them or didn’t vote. That was obviously stemming from indoctrination and frankly never really having to deal with the impact directly.

Abortion is an inherently sad and difficult act for most people to think about. I think the vast majority of people would choose to live in a world where it wasn't necessary. I also think there is a bias towards life, especially for religious people. You see it on assisted dying threads too where some people genuinely can't contemplate that some lives are so painful and difficult that the person living it has made a fully informed decision that they would prefer to be dead. It's messy because it's all tied up with people's beliefs on the value of life and when that life can be said to start and end.

Personally I see abortion as a sad but necessary part of life. Without it, you will bring much more sadness, suffering and pain into the world. Every child should be wanted in this cruel world where sometimes even that isn't enough.

RingoJuice · 22/11/2024 09:00

TheDisillusionedAnarchist · 22/11/2024 08:43

If you meet a 'pro life' activist with two kidneys you know they are misogynist hypocrite and not genuinely pro life. Some I know aren't even regular blood donors,

Kidney donation is the perfect analogy though. If you believe human life is so precious that others should have to take risks with their own body and life in order to preserve it including a small risk of death, lifelong changes, temporary pain then you would be a living donor.

Otherwise you really just think babies are sweet and women should be punished for having sex or you don't think at all or you have wider political motivations for example increasing the supply of infants for adoption. Certainly you care nothing for women or their babies born or unborn.

This is silly. Withholding a kidney from someone else is not the same as actually removing a fetus from your own body. I reiterate that I think you should have the right to do it, but it’s not the same. In the former, you are interfering in a natural process to help someone, in the latter you are interfering in a natural process to ‘harm’ someone.

They really do believe it’s an individual human life. It’s not even so much about intent or anything like that, because the most ardent even say rape victims should be banned from the practice, and that IVF is wrong because you are creating embryos that will never be implanted (yes, it’s stupid, but this is what they really think)

But bad things will happen if you force these people to become parents or have more children than they are prepared to care for (because they are hopelessly naive, they fail to understand these harmful social effects)

PoupeeGonflable · 22/11/2024 09:00

SuperfluousHen · 22/11/2024 08:54

I really appreciate the honesty that some advocates of abortion show when they don’t shy away from the undeniable scientific fact that human life does begin at conception.

if you took the absolutely newly fertilised egg from the fallopian tube it would not survive.
Nor would dividing clumps of cells in a womb
So no, not life yet

RingoJuice · 22/11/2024 09:01

PoupeeGonflable · 22/11/2024 08:58

Yes, this would apply if there was no appeal process. But as you well know, in most countries where there is a death penalty, inmates spend years and years waiting for appeals to be heard etc, so the taxpayer is spending just as much.
You have some pretty skewed thinking if you agree with no abortion at all and the death penalty

I’m pro-choice and pro-death penalty.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 22/11/2024 09:07

Completelyjo · 22/11/2024 08:50

Absolutely baffles me that anyone can look at the death penalty states from the UK and thinks “yeah I’ll have a bit of that please”.
Crazy.

And the idea that when innocent people are executed due to miscarriage of justice it's considered acceptable collateral damage.

Like women in the Abortion debate.

Another area is vaccination damage or medical incompetence, or any instance where something that is 99% safe for the majority can be devastating for the remaining 1%. Why can't it be accepted that those who do suffer these experiences need acknowledgement and support and redress?

It's easy to make sweeping judgements about "the greater good" but imposed martyrdom for a cause doesn't feel quite so comfortable when you become the 1% through no fault of your own. Sometimes it is nobody's "fault" per se, but the willingness to tell people to suck it up, shut up and go away to avoid societal discomfort is galling. Often it is somebody's fault, and that should be acknowledged and addressed and appropriate reparations made.

Thinking particularly of the nuclear test vets (have skin in this game as a direct descendant,), the post office scandal, the blood scandal etc etc. It's funny how the protection of money and reputation often trumps justice.

KnittedCardi · 22/11/2024 09:14

This whole debate comes down to 2 beliefs.

• Do you believe the unborn are human?

• Do you believe all innocent humans should have the equal right to life?

No. And therein lies the problem. You believe that life begins at conception. But a foetus is not an individual sentient being until quite late in its development. Most abortions are conducted very early on. There is no "life" to take. I do have concerns about late abortions co-inciding with live births, but these are very few, not chosen without extreme emotional conflict, and generally only include those with profound disabilities.

I think the pro-life movement is flawed, a waste of time and resources, is too wrapped up in religion and not enough in science, and should not be allowed to impact on health services provision.

Buddhistcauliflower · 22/11/2024 09:17

Abortions will happen no matter what measures you put in place to stop them, women have always and will always find a way to terminate an unwanted pregnancy. What these fools are campaigning for is that the rights of a bunch of cells trump the rights of a living woman. That's why pro-lifers disgust me.

RingoJuice · 22/11/2024 09:18

And the idea that when innocent people are executed due to miscarriage of justice it's considered acceptable collateral damage

But you never spare a thought for the people murdered by someone after serving time in prison? Because that happens too.

We have much better tools to decide guilt in the modern day via CCTV cameras and yet … we just decide not to execute people in much of the West.

zaxxon · 22/11/2024 09:18

Here's a very perceptive comment from a pastor in Alabama, Dave Barmhart, copied over from snopes.com:

"The unborn" are a convenient group of people to advocate for. They never make demands of you; they are morally uncomplicated, unlike the incarcerated, addicted, or the chronically poor; they don't resent your condescension or complain that you are not politically correct; unlike widows, they don't ask you to question patriarchy; unlike orphans, they don't need money, education, or childcare; unlike aliens, they don't bring all that racial, cultural, and religious baggage that you dislike; they allow you to feel good about yourself without any work at creating or maintaining relationships; and when they are born, you can forget about them, because they cease to be unborn. It's almost as if, by being born, they have died to you. You can love the unborn and advocate for them without substantially challenging your own wealth, power, or privilege, without re-imagining social structures, apologizing, or making reparations to anyone. They are, in short, the perfect people to love if you want to claim you love Jesus but actually dislike people who breathe.

Prisoners? Immigrants? The sick? The poor? Widows? Orphans? All the groups that are specifically mentioned in the Bible? They all get thrown under the bus for the unborn.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 22/11/2024 09:20

RingoJuice · 22/11/2024 09:18

And the idea that when innocent people are executed due to miscarriage of justice it's considered acceptable collateral damage

But you never spare a thought for the people murdered by someone after serving time in prison? Because that happens too.

We have much better tools to decide guilt in the modern day via CCTV cameras and yet … we just decide not to execute people in much of the West.

Eh? Not sure the comparison you're making?

HarkALark · 22/11/2024 09:24

I can't engage in good faith with people like you, @flagondry, because I find your attitude disingenuous and smug. I don't have a problem with being labelled pro-abortion, in your terminology. I do have a real problem with being patronised over what I should do with my body, by people who claim that authority on the basis of their own designated moral superiority.

@murasaki They're fully aware that women will die. They just don't care.

Completelyjo · 22/11/2024 09:25

zaxxon · 22/11/2024 09:18

Here's a very perceptive comment from a pastor in Alabama, Dave Barmhart, copied over from snopes.com:

"The unborn" are a convenient group of people to advocate for. They never make demands of you; they are morally uncomplicated, unlike the incarcerated, addicted, or the chronically poor; they don't resent your condescension or complain that you are not politically correct; unlike widows, they don't ask you to question patriarchy; unlike orphans, they don't need money, education, or childcare; unlike aliens, they don't bring all that racial, cultural, and religious baggage that you dislike; they allow you to feel good about yourself without any work at creating or maintaining relationships; and when they are born, you can forget about them, because they cease to be unborn. It's almost as if, by being born, they have died to you. You can love the unborn and advocate for them without substantially challenging your own wealth, power, or privilege, without re-imagining social structures, apologizing, or making reparations to anyone. They are, in short, the perfect people to love if you want to claim you love Jesus but actually dislike people who breathe.

Prisoners? Immigrants? The sick? The poor? Widows? Orphans? All the groups that are specifically mentioned in the Bible? They all get thrown under the bus for the unborn.

Edited

I’ve not seen this before but it’s very much my thinking.

I’m for having access to abortion because an unwanted pregnancy just isn’t made better by having a child. A child born into abuse or poverty or a terrible family life is not automatically better than abortion to me. I trust women to make their own choices for their family, their children and their pregnancy.

However I specifically dislike hardline pro-lifers for the reasons in your quote. Often they are “pro” life yet anti single mother, anti maternity pay, anti benefit system etc and that just doesn’t ring true with their pro life narrative to me.

Viviennemary · 22/11/2024 09:40

CraftyNavySeal · 21/11/2024 15:56

Because they don’t see it as a personal decision like getting a tattoo or a haircut, they see it as murdering a human being. I can’t murder you and then say “well it was my choice to murder you”.

I’m pro choice myself but I can see their argument

I watched a bit of it and recorded the rest. I don't think I can be pro choice as I am against late abortions unless for severe medical conditions.

SuperfluousHen · 22/11/2024 09:46

PoupeeGonflable · 22/11/2024 09:00

if you took the absolutely newly fertilised egg from the fallopian tube it would not survive.
Nor would dividing clumps of cells in a womb
So no, not life yet

At what point (in your opinion) does life begin?

Buddhistcauliflower · 22/11/2024 09:46

Viviennemary · 22/11/2024 09:40

I watched a bit of it and recorded the rest. I don't think I can be pro choice as I am against late abortions unless for severe medical conditions.

Which is pro choice. If you were pro life you would be anti abortion without exception. What you're saying is what 99% of pro choicers say; it's probably not for me but it's not for me to deny you access to essential healthcare.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 22/11/2024 09:58

zaxxon · 22/11/2024 09:18

Here's a very perceptive comment from a pastor in Alabama, Dave Barmhart, copied over from snopes.com:

"The unborn" are a convenient group of people to advocate for. They never make demands of you; they are morally uncomplicated, unlike the incarcerated, addicted, or the chronically poor; they don't resent your condescension or complain that you are not politically correct; unlike widows, they don't ask you to question patriarchy; unlike orphans, they don't need money, education, or childcare; unlike aliens, they don't bring all that racial, cultural, and religious baggage that you dislike; they allow you to feel good about yourself without any work at creating or maintaining relationships; and when they are born, you can forget about them, because they cease to be unborn. It's almost as if, by being born, they have died to you. You can love the unborn and advocate for them without substantially challenging your own wealth, power, or privilege, without re-imagining social structures, apologizing, or making reparations to anyone. They are, in short, the perfect people to love if you want to claim you love Jesus but actually dislike people who breathe.

Prisoners? Immigrants? The sick? The poor? Widows? Orphans? All the groups that are specifically mentioned in the Bible? They all get thrown under the bus for the unborn.

Edited

I never thought I'd find myself nodding along in agreement with a pastor. A very astute and honest observation.

Buddhistcauliflower · 22/11/2024 10:15

flagondry · 21/11/2024 19:10

Yep. I’m in it. ☺️

Are you the really irritating tiktoker?

Buddhistcauliflower · 22/11/2024 10:38

Sorry I'm watching the documentary now. Can anyone explain why they are filming the documentary maker? It's making an otherwise really well thought out and respectful documentary unwatchable for me.

Laughingravy · 22/11/2024 10:41

MistressoftheDarkSide · 22/11/2024 07:36

Much love to those who have shared their personal and harrowing experiences here. The toll of these should never be underestimated nor the grit and determination it requires to fight for oneself in the face of punitive bureaucracy, when its message seems to be that as a woman, you are the least worthy of support and most deserving of punishment for simply existing. I hold sorrow for those women who have been murdered / killed due to state sanctioned lunacy - if pro-lifers can use those terms then why shouldn't we?

I am opposed to the death penalty due to the possibility of miscarriages of justice. I may be considered a hypocrite by some, but I really don't think it's comparable.

Each situation where abortion is used is unique to the individual concerned.

I appreciate systemic solutions to societal and legal issues must have a standardised approach considered broadly acceptable by society, but they must also have scope for mitigation in each case and be subject to monitoring and review.

I am conflicted on the subject of assisted dying, as my biggest fears are slippery slopes and mission creep. It is ironic that suicide is being considered as acceptable when many consider it taboo because "God". But it does lean into personal rights and autonomy.

Often until one faces their particular and unique circumstances it is impossible to be aware of the nuances involved.

It is jarring to live in a world where contradiction is the order of the day.

In an ideal world none of these complex issues would need to exist, but humans are complex and Utopia for one can easily be hell for another.

Religion breeds orthodoxy, dogma, inquisition and death. It can so easily become a tool of oppression and power based on the possibility of unproveable consequences. It is replete with hypocrisy and paradox at every turn, and can reflect darkness dressed up as light.

The debate about how and why we are here is interesting and can never be settled but suffering of any kind that can be minimised and mitigated, should be.

The idea that people benefit from suffering is repugnant and underpins much religious orthodoxy. Essentially it's sadism dressed up as a greater, mysterious good.

Yes, we learn from it all, but what many people learn is to pass on their own suffering to the next available target. A pro-lifer may shout "gotcha" at this point but it's never that simple.

The lesser of two evils, the way to hell, the law of unintended consequences .... we all muddle through, and we all bear the consequences, we all learn and we all wonder why and how.

But women are worthy of as much consideration and compassion post birth as they are within the womb.

One of the pro-lifers I was arguing with used the argument that most abortions are of female fetuses as part of their gotcha moment. My brain is still pretzel shaped from that one.

One of the most well thought out and eloquent arguments I've ever read on Mumsnet.

DancefloorAcrobatics · 22/11/2024 10:43

A harsh view that will probably get deleted. But here we go:

Evnyone who is anti abortion should spend 6 months working in a care home for severly disabled adults. See their suffering, see how they don't have choices about their daily routine and the sadest part never have any contact with their familyies except for Christmas and birthdays (if they are lucky enough)
Then spend 6 months working in a children's home for troubled teenagers. Learn their stories about abuse, neglect and abandonment....

Then come back and have a proper debate about abortion!

Buddhistcauliflower · 22/11/2024 10:47

So this Eden is so close to understanding the prochoice movement with her coercion argument it's painful.