How do I explain LBTQ+ club to my year 7 son?

[elliejjtiny]

Ds4 is 11 and in year 7. He likes to go to clubs at lunchtime, mostly because if you are going to a club you can go to the front of the dinner queue. Ds4 is disabled so he usually ends up at the back of the queue otherwise.

Anyway, one of the club's is the LBQT+ club. Only he doesn't understand what the club is. I asked him what they do there and he said they play games, make badges and sometimes there is cake. He has been asking me what the letters mean but I don't know what to tell him. I could explain about families with 2 mum's or 2 dad's but that seems not quite right when the people going to the club are secondary school aged and I would have thought a large proportion of them are there to get out of the cold and for free cake. Also I have no idea how to explain the other letters to a child who doesn't understand the concept of sex/relationships yet. I'm very conscious that whatever I tell him will be repeated and I don't want him accidentally offending anybody.

We don't know any LBQT+ people apart from 2 of his teachers so I can't say that being trans is like uncle Dave who used to be Auntie Davina or explain that being gay is like Amelia from school who has 2 mums.

Do you think responding to everything with 😂 and nonsense about a bingo card , rather than coherently actually addressing the point raised marks you out as

A) someone worth listening to, or

B) yet another TRA who is actually unable to articulate any reasonable responses, so resorts to drivel, and thus further cementing in anybody with common sense's mind that TRAs are imbeciles?

“Not all people in blackface are racists”.

@Marblesbackagain thanks for joining the thread. It's really helpful when we get the "other side" to throw the sunlight in.

I think you're quite lucky to know these people @TeabySea. It's very difficult for those of us who only see the gov crime stats (which put TW in the most dangerous for women category) and don't know any TW, to have any empathy for their plight. If I knew a TW with the good traits you detail, who didn't actually think they were a woman, but rather a male with XY chromosomes who wanted to be a woman, and respected therefore women's rights to single sex spaces, I would have far more sympathy.

Tell him that sometimes men marry men and women marry women? Some children will have parents in relationships like these. Also explain about the warm weather and free cake angle. I'm sure at 11 he can understand that? He will find out the rest I'm sure as he matures. It's not a big deal. Other people's preferences don't affect his life much at 11.

The saying is don't argue with a fool, the fool doesn't know better.

I don't argue with the hate brigade. I kindly pointed them towards fact checking. This resulted in the bingo card of hateful bigoted posts.

So yep we now operate a bingo card of the phrases for our own entertainment. It never takes long.

Can't be bothered posting any more because again for those at the back. When you argue with a fool.......?

Thankfully I am fortunate to live in a place where your attitudes are rare or they have the good sense to stay quiet.

Make your arguments then. Otherwise we can just see you have none.

You are correct about the 'you can't argue with fools statement.' On that we agree. Fascinating though that you think the fools are the ones that are a) in the majority and b) the ones who haven't resorted to laughing emojis as responses.
I would also suggest that 'they have the good sense to stay quiet' refers to the only argument you seem to have, which is that you can't argue with fools.

Thankfully I am fortunate to live in a place where your attitudes are rare or they have the good sense to stay quiet.

@Marblesbackagain The staying quiet is starting to change thank goodness. Most people simply didn’t realise the situation re the GRA (2015) and how women as a sex were erased from equality legislation, and unfortunately many still don’t. But it is changing now in Ireland I think.

Everybody should be able to live their life as they wish (as adults), but it’s not fair to promote one group (trans) by taking away rights from another (women).

Children have been badly affected too, especially young teen girls, some of who now believe they’re trans rather than lesbian or autistic etc. (the percentage increase in those presenting as trans in this particular group are too high to be realistic). As a society we really dropped the ball here.

It's so true @Hollyivymistletoe

I recall even just a few years back, saying to my friends in a restaurant that TW were males, (literally the only requirement to be a TW) was met with 'shhhh' and furtive glances around to check no one heard. Even on mumsnet, saying the truth wasn't permitted and any dissenting posts other than TWAW was deleted.

It's all changed now. Now I wear my adult human female tshirt, and have only ever been met with smiles wearing it, and talk openly to anybody, who all agree it's a huge medical scandal.

The more we talk, the more it snowballs.

It's only the very hard of thinking/so keen to people please they haven't thought it through, that haven't woken up yet. It'll come.

This thread itself will have done absolutely nothing to further TRA cause, supporters have been hopeless, but the penny will have dropped for more lurkers.

You're entitled to your opinion. I tend to get to know people and make a judgement call based on that.

I consider that I'm fortunate that I don't associate with people who are only out to upset/stir/cause problems.

I would genuinely like to meet one of these men you talk about - are you able to say more about how they are kind and supportive? Do they think they are women? Do they use women’s facilities? Do they expect people to refer to them as ‘she’ or ‘her’?

100% genuine questions if you don’t mind answering.

I would like to add to @Leafstamp questions please @TeabySea

I note you haven't replied and that might be either because you're busy, or you have decided to not engage because leaf used to word men to describe a male, and you think that is hate.

My question would be, if that is the case, why is it hate?

My opinion, and I respect others differ, is that it is super important to have a word which describes male adult humans. Men has been that word since world began except the last few years. It's super important medically, as male bodies differ enormously from female bodies so medical professionals need to know this. It's also super important from a crime gathering stats perspective- how can we fathom where danger is if we can't define traits? It's also super important in sport where it has been recognised that an XY body after puberty will perform 20% stronger than an XX body and nothing can mitigate that.

How can we debate these issues, if one side is not allowed to say their opinion and present scientific facts?

One of them is an older person - very vocal and active about women's issues - relating to health, wellbeing, legislation and bodily autonomy. She belongs to a number of community organisations. She lives as a woman in a reasonably small community and afaik uses women's facilities. She goes by she/they generally. She suffered a lot of abuse as a child and was ostracised by family, has had to go NC and now the other side of the country to them.

The other is a similar age to me (later 50s). I only see them occasionally. Everyone refers to her as she/her but I have never heard her making any demands about it. She lives in an area where there are lots of arty craftsy people. She is a very capable person with a range of interests and hobbies, works in media.

I refer to both these people as women. They're not men in dresses. One has had some surgery, but we're not close enough that this is a topic of discussion.
Nobody I know who knows them has ever felt threatened or demeaned or sidelined by either of them.

I was busy, sorry.
These are people I see socially a few times a year.

They were born male but neither of them are in any way 'masculine'. My personal take is that the whole concept of masculinity and femininity itself poses problems in terms of expected behaviours, and emotional capability.

Bodily strength is definitely something that differs but intent to harm isn't excusive to transpersons and I wouldn't necessarily assume that they presented any more danger than any other person. I do accept that violence and aggression against women does come from men, in the majority, but I was just saying that in my experience, this wasn't the case with the people I know. They are, as far as biology and behaviour, much more aligned to what we would perceive as feminine.

Thank you for coming back and sharing your experience, it’s actually quite fascinating.

Are you able to explain why you refer to them as women when they’re not?

What does the word ‘woman’ mean to you?

And what does ‘living as a woman’ mean to you? Would it be activities they do, or clothes or?

And lastly, do you think would know for sure whether or not someone felt uncomfortable around them?

The people I refer to live act and dress in the same way that biological females I know do. One is retired, one works. As per previous, they are pro-women, and I don't see any good reason not to address them in the same way I would biological female acquaintances.
Similarly, if I met another acquaintances child (transman) I would address that person as him.
I'd do this as standard courtesy in the same way I would call a person by the name they asked me to.
How these people choose to live doesn't affect me in any way, nor are they harming anyone else.

Given the circles that I know these people move in, if anyone else was uncomfortable with them, it would be known.

I don't bother with them. I am too old to play that game. These trends come and go. Now it's trans, next thing will be something else.

@TeabySea

live act and dress in the same way that biological females I know do.

But what is this way?

Does the word woman mean anything if men can be woman?

I appreciate that these people are your friends, but you must see that it makes no sense to say that male humans are women?

The operative word you used is ‘act’
Its an act, like an actor -pretending to be someone else. I suppose that’s okay as long as you do not intend to deceive

The number of genders and the acceptable thing to say is constantly changing, I can't be bothered to deal with pronouns or the different gender categories there are. Tolerance can't only go one way. Call yourself what you like but don't throw a strop if someone gets your preferred pronoun wrong.

LGBT has always existed and always will but all the obsession with terminology etc is a fad. It's the latest in thing.

We aren't in 1984, we don't have to bow the knee to all this tedious compelled speech hipster stuff. Most of us have better things to do. I don't care what gender you are , you are human and I will treat you with respect but don't expect me to be on board with all the latest lingo.

Parents get to decide if their children participate in these clubs or not. All of us had things we weren't allowed to do when we were kids, it's part of life.

Did you see the case about the dogs pronouns. This went to court. www.personneltoday.com/hr/freedom-of-belief-training-gender-fluid-dachshund-pitt-v-cambridgeshire-county-council/

This isn't some harmless whim. Women have lost jobs for stating sex is immutable. Women are censored and threatened.

Parent doesn't want to explain about LGBT. Worst case scenario is child finds out about it from someone else or when they are older. They have internet, if a child thinks they are gay there is a world of info out there for them. Kids are pretty laid back about their sexuality these days it seems.

I did. Seems the world has gone mad. I can't take all this trans stuff seriously . I don't get why it's even a protected thing? I have ginger hair , why is that not a protected characteristic?