People of the left, can we learn some lessons from Trump's win please?

[Outandinbout]

And other things, like Brexit, the disaster that was Jeremy Corbyn and his campaign.

Whilst there will be multi-factorial reasons for the way all these votes went, one of the reason, imo, is that far too many people on the left think anyone who disagrees with them is thick and racist. Do you remember that mock advert for Labour during JCs campaign? ' You are thick and racist - Vote Labour!'. That raised laughs because it resonated with how people felt about the Left.

Just stop being so bloody certain you are right and everyone else is wrong and start bloody listening to people who voted the way you don't want them to. Figure out why that is. Realise they actually have some legitimate concerns. Find ways to address these.

Because, and I can't believe I actually have to point this out, insulting people is not the way to win them over. Addressing their concerns is.

Because its not smart to sit there smugly thinking you are always right, even when voters are repeatedly disagreeing with you. It feels nice to think that, yes. But all that means is that you lack the courage to move yourself out of your psychological comfort zone. Its lazy, not smart. And it shows a distinct lack of intellectual curiosity.

I'm pretty pissed at Trump winning as I support Ukraine. I think the Left in America needs to look pretty hard at itself as to why a candidate such as Trump has won. And the left in the UK has lessons to learn too.

My takeaway from Trump's win is still the same as it was for Brexit and Johnson's win: desperate people want hope and therefore cling to short positively expressed but unsubstantiated slogans. They lap up the hype and are turned off by explanations and pragmatism. They don't want analysis, they want promises - and they trust the 'strong man' that repeats those promises so often they become believeable to them.

Harris was very much hope, vibes, joy and celebrities

It was even more lightweight than policies addressing immigration and the economy

The substance wasn't there and initially she polled higher but it fell away

I see them more as accurate descriptors. 😁 It is lazy, intellectual cowardice to not look honestly into why your side failed, but just to blame the others for being too thick to recognise your brilliance. I'll stand by that assessment.

And of course, and this is a major difference, I am not trying to get anyone to vote for me. I would, of course, conduct myself differently if I were. Unlike the Democrats.

I agree - he nailed it.

But this is not what happened. You clearly did not listen to any of Harris's campaigning if you think she offered analysis, explanations and pragmatism. She was awful, truly awful. She was like a daytime tv chat show host, offering vague and meaningless platitudes on positivity and hope. She might as well as offered to conjure up a Vision Board for America.

He does nail it.

The bit about the ad to get wives to secretly vote democrat. He is so right. I watched that ad with an open mouth. It insulted both white working class men and white working class women. It was just astonishing that the Democrats were so living in bubble of their prejudice, that they honestly could not see they were insulting the very people they were trying to persuade to vote for them.

...and Trump offered what exactly? "they are eating the cats and dogs..." i'll deport 14m people.." put 60% tariffs on ALL Chinese imports..." & 25% on all other imports"
...and whilst i'm about it "i'll stop the wars in Ukraine and Gaza..."

I mean really, if you re going to critic one side, then lets also look at the opposition...

It wouldn't have mattered what Harris said or did, the electorate did not want a Democratic President, they don't even want abortion rights.

Trump much like Bojo or Farage is a skilled salesman, unless your better, you'll lose.

Oh and good to see that you ve finely dropped the idea that you want to win people over and address their concerns.... they are just thick and lazy instead.

Watch the video I posted. It's no good pointing at Trump, he will do what he does. You have to offer stuff of your own!

midgetastic · Yesterday 08:22

But why is it ok for the right to sneer at the left and call them elite educated as though the left is totally divorced from the real world? As opposed to clearly being as much a part of it as they are

I've often wondered that myself. It seems to be encouraged by the press, as well; they seize on anything Harris said, whilst taking little notice of Trump's outright, highly personal nastiness.

I think that Harris made plenty of blunders, calling people deplorables and the like, as well as just stating her version, not explaining it and expecting all right minded people to simply nod along.

"We" did and Labour won.....

But Labour weren't up against a Trump style opposition, Sunak was a normal politician, so arguments could be made and debated over..... his problem was the Cons 14 years in office.

My point is sometimes it doesn't matter what is offered, the electorate isn't listening, so they believe the Trump stuff or here, what Farage Bojo say... logic and argument simply does not work.

I like JP but i didn't agree with this particular take... women voted to lose abortion rights, people voted to get rid of the FBI!!!

Sometimes, no argument can be made against that sort of collective madness.

I mean really, if you re going to critic one side, then lets also look at the opposition...

No I really don't. If my concern is to find out why my side suffered a colossal lost, then I need to look at what my side got wrong and what the winning side got right.

That's my point. Have some humility, stop comforting yourself with how the other side are all arseholes, and instead have the inner courage and resilience to reflect and learn, so you can do better next time. Because if you don't do that, in any aspect of life, you are doomed to failure. (that's a generic 'you' by the way).

It wouldn't have mattered what Harris said or did, the electorate did not want a Democratic President, they don't even want abortion rights
It absolutely mattered what she said and did and she said and did the wrong things. She marketed herself as the continuity candidate in country that was unhappy with the status quo and wanted change. It was disastrous failure to read the country. If the Democrats has fielded a candidate who marked a change from the Biden administration and had clear policies that spoke to people's concerns then they may have fared better. It wasn't that they didn't want abortion rights, many states have abortion rights, its just that for the majority of people this was not a primary concern over cost of living and other issues.

Trump much like Bojo or Farage is a skilled salesman, unless your better, you'll lose
Yes he is, A Presidential system means you have to be a skilled salesman to become President. Its a product of the system.

Oh and good to see that you ve finely dropped the idea that you want to win people over and address their concerns.... they are just thick and lazy instead
That made me laugh out loud! Who do you think I am?!?! I can't address anyone's concerns! I am not running for public office. That comment was aimed at those hoping to be elected to public office.

I do think there is an intellectual and moral bankruptcy in refusing to look inwards and learn lessons from a colossal defeat, yes, but instead to only locate the failure outside of yourself. Its not a position that is worthy of respect. Watching people on this thread flail about and rage and deflect and do anything, anything, rather than say ' ok, maybe my side got some things badly wrong there', has not been edifying. And its ultimately self-defeating.

My point is sometimes it doesn't matter what is offered, the electorate isn't listening, so they believe the Trump stuff or here, what Farage Bojo say... logic and argument simply does not work

Your argument seems to be that it doesn't matter that KH offered nothing and had no policies and didn't understand what the electorate wanted, they wouldn't have voted for her anyway. So its not her fault.

That's a pretty desperate argument and that same sort of contemptuous attitude to the electorate that the Harris campaign shared, is part of the reason they failed.

They just had a democrat speak well about the loss, and they said it was a huge loss, on why and they recognised what you have. Just the fallings without blaming the electorate or the other side

That's good to hear. If the Democrat party can learn from this then there's hope that they can defeat Vance when he almost certainly runs for President in four years.

It was fascinating I have been listening to a few speakers today, another factor that stuck with me is the parties have pretty much switched. Democrats earn more than those who voted for Trump. And speaking to someone else Trump barely mentions that he is for the Republican Party in speeches

It's more MAGA and that appeals to blue collar and more of an ethnic mix, which has really stolen some of Democrat's base

Loads of post loss analysis, interesting stuff

Well stop repeating those same mistakes @Outandinbout.

Look, Trump won, you're going to have to get over it. Your snarky insults didn't work on Trump voters, they probably won't work on the Democrats either.🤷‍♀️

Be the change you want to see, and let go of all this self loathing and flagellation. It's not good for you.

Nope.

a few things.

a: the democrats are not "my side" i'm not American and don't live there, i also doubt very much that Trump will do anything he said he would either, so i'm not that fussed about him winning, he certainly will not introduce tariffs, that would wreck Musk!! i think he will insist on Europe paying more for its defence, not a bad thing... he was also the President who first sent weapons to Ukraine.

Its sad to see abortion rights reduced in the US but thats for them to sort out.

b: its not being contemptuous at all, its fact, sometimes, it really doesn't matter what is said or offered, it wasn't the Democrats time, they were blamed for global economic woes, how can one defend against that?
The democrats were up against women who want abortion rights but still cheered for Trump...
Same goes for Sunak, he was part blamed for our col crisis, unfair of course but he couldn't shake it off in many peoples minds.

c: You seem to be addressing me as if i'm on the Harris team... i'm really not, but i liked her, i found her inspiring, her acceptance speech was fantastic, it was broadcast on the World Service, Trump supporters wouldn't have even listened to it...

You were the one in your OP who said about addressing peoples concerns without being rude etc I'm just pleased you've dropped that pretense.

@Alexandra2001 Thank God you are not on the democrats team when you are so deeply embedded in the view that nothing was their fault and there was nothing they could've done to change the result. Hopefully more reflective people open to learning from their mistakes are there.

Very sensible article from the New York Times. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/06/opinion/donald-trump-defeat-democrats.html?unlocked_article_code=1.X04.UBCv.NBJy_BLBUpZv&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Thanks that is a really good article and a good resposte to any cries of ' there was nothing we could do to stop Trump winning!'

Particulalrly liked this line.
The broad inability of liberals to understand Trump’s political appeal except in terms flattering to their beliefs is itself part of the explanation for his historic, and entirely avoidable, comeback

And also this line
Right now, my larger fear is that liberals lack the introspection to see where they went wrong, the discipline to do better next time and the humility to change

No it doesn't because the bottom line is that the author does not address the simple truth that had the democrats changed these things, Trump would still have won.

Fundamentally, the democrats were blamed for the cost of living crisis, even if Biden had stepped down earlier, they still would have carried the can.

It really is lazy thinking to assume that had they done x or y they'd have won.

America wanted change and Harris was continuity.

I wonder if one of the problems is that the Left as well as the Right is funded by billionaires and multinationals.
But as the Right has always openly been on the side of business and wealth, there's not as much of a dissonance there.
The Left are no purer than the Right but huh they make their money from media, marketing, 'health', brand names etc, versus the corporations funding the Right being perhaps more old school - say, fossil fuels, engineering, cars, steel, chemicals.
So when people say 'but they're all the same', there is truth in that: both Left and Right are funded by people who have way too much wealth and power. The difference is that whilst the corruption is the same, the messaging is different.
The Right at least pretend to be on the side of the working classes - and because their funds come from 'unwoke' billionaires, their message seems more down to earth, whilst the Left has been taken over, in terms of message, by a rather Victorian patrician message of 'plebs, we know what's best'.,and that is amplified by their corporate supporters being or pretending to be 'woke' to increase their profits. They've lost sight of their roots.
I don't see a way of solving it without a full dismantling of the current excesses of capitalism, but a start would be honesty.
When Trump waffles on about climate or 'drill drill drill', at least he's being open about his amorality (as I see it - I'm an environmentalist). When Biden extracted more oil/gas than had ever been done before (something you'd think a Trump voter would like) it was hidden behind stuff like trans rights, which may appeal to a certain middle class, well-off, quite white niche, but really isn't going to cut it with most people.

the author does not address the simple truth that had the democrats changed these things, Trump would still have won
Something you are speculating is not truth.

America wanted change and Harris was continuity Democrats offering a continuity candidate was a campaign strategy choice, as was running initially with Biden. They could have made a different choice to have a change candidate, or even to have Harris market herself as a change candidate by actually saying how she was going to do things differently.

Your case here is really confused. You both say the democrats could not have won even if they changed things, then implicitly acknowledged that if they had done things differently and offered change they might have won, as change was the way to win.

Well, tbf your belief is also speculation.

The Democrats cannot offer anything but the continuity ticket, they re the ones who have been in power.... no confusion.

Biden decided to hang on, nothing KH could do about that & no, i'm not saying they could have won, at best, had a smaller defeat!

Had Trump been the incumbent, Harris would, imho, beaten him... people wanted change.

R4 just raised the interesting stat that in 2024, all Western Govt's, who have had an election, have seen vote share fall or been defeated.... the electorate is blaming their Govt's for COL crisis and why not?

Our last two Govts have done nothing about energy costs going up, water bills, nothing to deal with the billions made by supermarkets or not handing back the 5p cut in fuel duty, fore court margins have doubled.... wonder why?

If Labour carry on as they are going, then i wont be voting for them in 2029 and i doubt anyone else will, regardless of their campaign or who is their leader/PM.