The poorest men are most likely to be childless against their will

[Socktopusses]

Really interesting article on BBC News today - especially interesting points around wealth and demographics - the poorest men are most likely to be involuntarily childless

link: BBC article

I'm child-free by choice - but being female, I've always had the comfort of knowing that if I changed my mind, I could have a child by sperm donor, on my own and I'd solve my own problem. (Fertility dependent of course, but in theory). It's up to me, basically.

I've had plenty of discussions with my female friends who want children but are struggling to have them, both those struggling with physical fertility - and single female friends who haven't met the right person at the right time and don't want to do it by themselves.

But I'm ashamed to say that outside of the couples I know undergoing IVF, I've never really thought about childfree-not-by-choice men and what it must be like for them. Particularly single men - who in theory could become fathers but don't have the circumstances. They can't just 'do it by themselves', and they're also not even acknowledged in the statistics.

Do you know any single men who long to be fathers but aren't? Just thought it was interesting.

I would like to see more men boasting about how much they contribute to their families instead of how many children they've fathered. I've noticed this with an acquaintance - he'll boast about being virile but he's completely feckless. Workshy. Lazy. And to be honest the woman he chose to reproduce with is equally feckless. I think a lot of women think a baby will fix men and are shocked when it doesn't.

Ultimately that entire article is the result of the incel complaint about women now not being obliged to accept useless men as partners and many rightly deciding that if they cannot find a decent partner they'd rather be single.

The solution is for these whining losers to work on themselves so that they become sufficiently appealing to women that somebody might consider them a viable prospect.

To be fair to that poster, I think she was saying it was a good thing not a bad thing.

Maybe he didn't want them either, then changed his mind.

I can believe this. I go to a few MH support groups, and there are many men there that have always wanted children, but never had the chance. They are all on benefits (so would be classed as poor), but their poor MH certainly had a part to play. Some also have autism and have never even had a partner. A few are ok with that, and others are very lonely.

I used to have a male friend who always wanted kids, but married someone who didn't want them. He always said he would rather be with his wife, but he also would not allow her to go on any thing other than oral contraceptives.

There are some who might ask "Do we want them to breed ?"

What happens when eugenics meets economics ?

Women having children alone via sperm donor etc is still extremely rare: such a small percentage that it can be disregarded from the statistics as a rounding error.

The stats from Finland show that unsurprisingly richer (correlates strongly to intelligent and well-educated and stable and having a good career - all desireable characteristics) people are more likely to have children than people who are the opposite. And that people generally are more disposed to have children when they know they can provide for them properly. Hardly surprising.

As I said previously, in addition it is obvious that the fewer desireable characteristics you have, the smaller your potential dating pool. Therefore, given financial stability is important and most successful relationships are based on people having similar characteristics, someone with very low earnings will be an attractive prospect to far fewer potential partners because they will have less in common and they'll have to carry the other person financially. Again, not surprising.

Yes, of course women have more choice iver whether to get pregnant/ progress a pregnancy than a man because it is our bodies that produce children. So basically the only factor here that appears to be about sex specifically is that men can't force a woman to have a child they don't want. When reduced down to what it says this is just a classic incel rage against men not being able to control women and thinking it's "so unfair".

No one is owed a baby. If you can’t support yourself after many many years of being a working age adult how can you possibly support a dependent child until 18? Especially if you have a baby in your 50s, how are you supporting your family at 68 or 70?

No one is owed a relationship and a family however sad that might be for that individual and it must be difficult believing that previous generations of men just ‘had’ wives and children but then those men had to go work down mines so it’s swings and roundabouts. No sympathy from me however.

So basically the only factor here that appears to be about sex specifically is that men can't force a woman to have a child they don't want. When reduced down to what it says this is just a classic incel rage against men not being able to control women and thinking it's "so unfair".

Yep, nail on the head with that.

I do think such men are ripe for manipulation by the far right (apparently lots of single incel types will ensure a trump presidency cos they blame trans people and woke society aka women rejecting them) so it is concerning for us all.

Concerb

Yes, and I've seen it several times. It happened to me, actually, although I was ho-hum about having children, sop once I got over the heartbreak, it was OK.

But these are men who are "Peter Pans" - in their 20s and 30s they don't want children, but they steal a woman's fertile years. It is despicable behaviour.

Sorry!

Concerning, yes. But it's not something for women to fix. Men underperforming and not behaving in a manner that means women want a relationship with them is a man problem. Incel culture is a man problem. Misogyny, a man problem. Trump... guess what?

We can recognise certain types of men have some big problems, but ultimately men will need to address that. And the solution is not going to be "oh, you poor love. You're a useless, lazy, deadbeat but I feel sorry for you so let's have a child together to make you feel better". Most women have wised up.

he also would not allow her to go on any thing other than oral contraceptives.

She's well rid of him then. The Pill quadruples her risk of a stroke. Also, it's not up to him what contraception she uses.

He always said he would rather be with his wife, but he also would not allow her to go on any thing other than oral contraceptives.

Ugh, I hope she left the controlling bastard.

I know, but their relationship is a big mess anyway. He read somewhere about a woman on the coil having a baby anyway and baby being born with the coil in their hand.
I am not in touch with them anymore, but he was a total knob.

@YellowAsteroid I'm so sorry that happened to you. I am glad you are ok now. I agree it is despicable and I'm aware of others that have had similar experiences. I struggle to believe such a sudden change of heart on such a major and fundamental life choice is genuine, 25 years or more into adulthood. There certainly does appear to be a lot of "stringing along", either of women who want children and men pretending they do until it's too late, or men doing what you described and wasting a woman's fertile years in the full knowledge of the consequences of this then "suddenly" deciding they want children with someone else. Both incredibly dishonest.

If women were to take the approach that this incel article appears to then I suppose any woman in her 50s who suddenly decided she wanted children should be able to demand that a younger woman produces one for her. That's how ridiculous the premise of the article is.

Life can be very unfair and cruel. I guess we all have to live with the choices we make, and some good/ bad luck. I think what makes me angry about the article is the sheer entitlement, as if a wife and children is a right these men have been denied; it's dangerous territory, commodifying human beings as some kind of status symbol or even just something they assume they should have as a matter of course, as if the women aren't actual people. Very narcissistic.

I am not in touch with them anymore, but he was a total knob.

Let's hope he has remained a childless knob, for the sake of the gene pool.

Children are labour and resource-intensive. Although there are exceptions, studies show that many men don't pull their weight on the labour side. Why then would women want to have children with men who are unlikely to be able to provide their share of the resources necessary to raise children in a comfortable environment either?

Have you seen the latest that? The leader of turning point the right-wing project in America is absolutely p*** off that women. Guess what women are secretly voting against their husband because right now, women are voting hell of a lot more in the early polls as percentage in the swing States compared to men. They are not happy that the Democrats did a advert. Saying, basically, if you want to go and vote, it can be a secret between you and your husband to vote Democrat, and they were like, oh my God, how dare women vote against what the men want? I couldn't believe it if I wasn't watching it myself on YouTube. It was real. And this is how someone the right think

Just heard lbc asking men and as I said earlier one man was saying his mates are just to fussy like the women have to check every box. Just as I thought

I mer one of H's mates a while back, late 40s, didn't have kids, and was gutted it had never worked out for him.

He isn't in the lowest paid, useless category but travelled a lot for work, stayed in the music party scene too long, met his wife to be when she was over 40.

He isn't an incel, and it was surprising he opened up so early on.

Theoretically he could have waited for a younger partner perhaps but he also understood being mid 50s in the park, at the school gates, it just wasn't fair on any child either.

Hopefully young men will listen to some of the older men now regretting some of their choices and now childless status, actually I know of a local as well.

Yes women will get blamed by some who blame women for everything anyway. Honestly it's so predictable now it's like water off a duck's back, The Telegraph likes to blame women not being in the home for the fact their older family members have to pay for care in later life, not once did it dawn on them perhaps the sons could step up.

Society is changing, we are all in the middle of a huge change. It will settle down to a new normal, might take 40, 50, 60 years and whilst you live through it it's hard to see the eventual new normal.

Housing, climate, education, equality, all contributers.

I think it's important for lower income men to have a voice. Just as with any other group. Might not change anything for them but acknowledgement of their social position in life is important.

Hopefully this is the start of the conversations not the end. Perhaps one aspect will be listening to women about why they are not willing to breed will help towards men's generalisation that they are equal humans not golden penii that should forever be worshipped? Who knows?

I can see this being used by incels to gain sympathy.
I've been in online incel circles and seen how they think, they spend a lot of time laughing at individual single mothers and saying "she should of chose a better man"

But then moan when women do chose better men???

The cognitive dissonance is unreal

Hahaa how funny. So they're living with their parents in their 30s and 40s and moaning they can't convince anybody to have sex with them and simultaneously thinking that women who have their own homes and children are inferior to them and must be sooooo sad that they aren't living with a man? Brilliant!

If women were to take the approach that this incel article appears to then I suppose any woman in her 50s who suddenly decided she wanted children should be able to demand that a younger woman produces one for her.

That's the basic premise of surrogacy.