The poorest men are most likely to be childless against their will

[Socktopusses]

Really interesting article on BBC News today - especially interesting points around wealth and demographics - the poorest men are most likely to be involuntarily childless

link: BBC article

I'm child-free by choice - but being female, I've always had the comfort of knowing that if I changed my mind, I could have a child by sperm donor, on my own and I'd solve my own problem. (Fertility dependent of course, but in theory). It's up to me, basically.

I've had plenty of discussions with my female friends who want children but are struggling to have them, both those struggling with physical fertility - and single female friends who haven't met the right person at the right time and don't want to do it by themselves.

But I'm ashamed to say that outside of the couples I know undergoing IVF, I've never really thought about childfree-not-by-choice men and what it must be like for them. Particularly single men - who in theory could become fathers but don't have the circumstances. They can't just 'do it by themselves', and they're also not even acknowledged in the statistics.

Do you know any single men who long to be fathers but aren't? Just thought it was interesting.

Great article! So interesting.

This section in particular is really interesting:

Like marriage, having a child was once seen as a cornerstone event, something young people did as they embarked on adult life. Now, says Professor Rotkirch, it’s seen as a capstone event – what you do once other goals have been achieved.

No I don't. It's pretty easy for a man to find a woman, if he is looking for a partner 30+ and he is genuinely wanting a LTR. So very few if any men out there desperately want to find a wife and have kids but can't.

There might be some that are meh, wouldn't mind either way, but haven't done it (yet). Many more will be aged 40-50 or more, but who still think they'll do it later. These groups would be the "childless" represented in the statistics.

Also I don't think men want children the same all encompassing way many women do. So a childless man wouldn't be that bothered by it.

I know many men who didnt want kids until they were 50 and ofc they were able to find 30- year-olds to have them. unlike many women I know .

Never met a man longing to be a father, sadly. Met lots avoiding being 'tied down ' though.

Exactly. Single men hardly have no options, come on. Single straight men have the easiest option of all, to basically click their fingers and a younger woman will appear to have their kids.

I know a guy who came to an arrangement with his lesbian friends.

They co parent well (live close but not together) and are planning a second child when the first is school age.

They did a lot of talking about how they imagined it would go and lots of things had the change once they had a real baby but like any other parents they’re figuring it out

I seriously doubt many poor 50 year old men could pull a 30 something to have kids with. They wouldn’t be seen as an attractive partner at all.

I don't know one man who really yearned to be a father. Not one.

In fact, just about the only ones I hear about are (male) gay couples (obviously) using surrogacy.

Ok. Some I know have.

The article is referring to men with a low income. Men that the average MNer wouldn't even consider a first date with, let alone having children with.

I don’t know anyone who falls into that category.

Why can’t a ‘poor’ man get together with a ‘poor’ woman? I can think of lots of people like that ie ordinary working class people who become a couple and have a family.

I don’t know any, no. I know a good handful of men who always knew they wouldn’t want children, single and coupled up, including my brothers. I have a male friend was seems to always have been desperate to be a dad but he married a woman who never wanted any and they’re completely miserable.

Of course. But there will also be women from this background who don't want children, or are able to attract a higher income partner.

The problem is it's still taboo to admit that you wouldn't want to pair up with a man with a much lower income.

In my experience a lot of men don’t tend to long for children in the way that women do. I’m certain that my dad wouldn’t have had children if he hadn’t met my mum who pushed him into it (she would have left him otherwise). My own DH has always wanted children but says he would never have considered having them on his own even if it was an option and he could afford to. Where as I would have done anything for a child and would have had one on my own if unable to find a suitable partner.

The problem is it's still taboo to admit that you wouldn't want to pair up with a man with a much lower income.

That's a personal choice but there are many women who don't mind. There are women who are with men who have never worked.

I agree with others - have never come across a man who's yearning for a child. I do know some who would like a partner and haven't been able to meet the right one.

Men are usually much more motivated by finding a mate and - assuming they find a woman - it is her momentum that gets the two of them to the point of reproducing. At some point thereafter, many men discover that it is actually fulfilling.

I think most men, rich or poor, are ambivalent about having babies.

Speaking in generalities, of course!

But there are also many higher income men who don't want kids, or want them in many years with someone younger. So there are many women in the 30-40 age bracket that desperately want a partner and children. Income wouldn't come in to it if they met someone half decent.

@Strawberrycheesecake7 my DH was the same. Really wanted a family of his own but a wife was always a part of that equation, not being a single Dad. In my experience, women are much more likely to make a conscious decision to be a single parent so they can be a parent, men, not so much.

Edited to add: Of course, it is much, much harder for men to simply be single Dads, but I don't think there is such a strong biological drive to reproduce as there is with women. Perhaps amongst men, the social status of being a husband and a father is no longer as important as it was?

There is a declining birth rate generally in the west.

I think currently, most children are being born today to the upper middle class/wealthy (your Gordon Ramsey/Jamie Oliver 5+ kids people) or the lower end of the scale who are part time minimum wage workers, who don’t have expensive mortgages or career goals that dictate when/if you can afford to have kids.

What I’m curious about is how do we actually measure if a man is a father? There must be a significant number of children born with no father registered on their birth certificate, so a man can legitimately tick a box saying they are childless, but not actually be.

I know at least one man in this situation. Earns just over minimum wage, not conventionally attractive, mild autism which makes dating and meeting people tricky. No traction on dating apps. Desperate for a family, wants 4+ children, but increasingly depressed that it might not happen. These people do exist.

I saw that article. It doesn't surprise me. As women have improved choices and do not need to settle anymore it has led to the requirement for men to up their game.

The young women in my DC generation have high expectations even during dating. Not sure if it is social media but it comes as no surprise that they are rejecting low income men. They want self sufficient men who at the very least match their income, can wine and dine them but are also attractive and have emotional maturity.

It is tough for men who realise this too late in the game.

Parts of this article were infuriating.

“The crisis of masculinity”? Really? I see nothing wrong with women not wanting to have children with poor men who cannot provide for these children they apparently so desperately want.

This article made women choosing partners for their own reasons like a bad thing. Like we should be having babies with men who are poor/ugly/whatever just because they’d like us to, and historically we had to (to have a bloody bank account/home etc)

Also it said that now poorer families are no longer the ones having kids first. Surely this is a good thing and a sign of better education that people aren’t having children they can’t afford?

I don't think it is.
Honestly,men with a low incomes often have other issues that prevent them progressing in life ( not always their own fault) but those issues mean many women won't find them attractive as partners.

I don't feel sorry for men who'd like a child but 'can't do it by themselves'. It's just biology. If as a man, you don't find a partner who wants to have children with you, you can't have a child. I don't think this is a tragedy - there are many unfulfilled dreams in life.

One of the pictures comes with this subtitle: "Childless men who wanted to be fathers are a hidden and disenfranchised population, according to Robin Hadley'. How are they "disenfranchised', exactly? What political power are they denied? They might feel wistful for an idea of a life they'd like to have, or lonely, neither of which are exceptional states.