And AGAIN, where the hell was the father?!

[PyongyangKipperbang]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8elyx27p56o

Not suggesting he is responsible for their deaths but.....

They lived in squalor, the toilet and bath were both unusable due to being filled with rubbish so they used pots and buckets instead. He knew that the mother left them to go to the local shop and appears to be fine with that, and describes her as a "good mother". WTF?!

Two sets of twins in under two years and where the hell was he? Even in a strong team working marriage that would be a struggle, but a single mother doing it.....

I am not making excuses for her. What she did both before their deaths and in what caused their deaths was inexcusable. But if you knew that your childs other parent was struggling to that extent then you should step up, and if you dont know then you are not involved enough in their lives to know that they are living in filth.

He isnt directly responsible for their deaths but he is surely guilty of neglect?! How the fucking hell has not been charged with that?!

When my parents separated a million years ago, they never set foot in each other's houses. It's pretty normal for divorced/separated couples. There is no need to go into the house to get your children.

Because the children were always clean, well-dressed, and happy when he saw them. There was no reason for him to think she wasn't a good mother.

We need to judge mothers harshly because the consequences when they fail or give up are so drastic.

The truth is that our society is structured so that fathers, by and large, can opt out or fail with limited consequences for their kids. There will usually (admittedly not always) be another parent around to pick up the pieces and who will provide adequate ("good enough") parenting, even if not good parenting.

If mothers threw in the towel at the rate fathers do, it would be disastrous for children and ruinous to public finances. It's much cheaper to have a societal expectation that, however ground-down or worn out or ill they are, mothers must just plod along making things ok for everyone at the expense of their own wellbeing. And by and large they do. And that lets everyone else who would otherwise have to step in off the hook.

But when mothers fail for whatever reason, it's absolutely disastrous. When fathers fail, often nobody notices.

I think that's a good question to ask here - how could the welfare of four very young children be so entirely dependent on one single person, that when that single person stopped functioning properly, it proved fatal for them? Surely the burden should have been spread more widely. This woman was changing nappies for four babies at one point.

Guardian news says she left them for 30 minutes.

No wonder the house descended in squalor.

I agree with your views on how this society is structured.

If men were primary carers across society there would be more support for them.

The fire service was called at 7pm. She arrived at the house between 8:30pm and 9pm. She was gone for at least 90 minutes. She made up a whole story about a lesbian called Jade was looking after them for her and she was going to be so pissed if Jade had left the children alone. The police wasted a lot of time trying to track down this Jade who never existed.

I would suggest that little by little she became overwhelmed, one little heap of mess became a huge heap of mess. One individual got something stuck in the loo and because of the mess she wouldn't phone to get it sorted. So they started to use buckets. Little by little it just spiralled out of control. Her mental health declined and she couldn't see a way out. Not letting family, friends, social workers in, lots of excuses about why they couldn't enter.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, of course she needed intervention, but until the system works better, and until people stop complaining if they get an unwarranted visit, these tragedies will continue.

The fire service was called at 7pm. She arrived at the house between 8:30pm and 9pm. She was gone for at least 90 minutes.

And who knows how long they were alone before the fire service were called.

Or how many times she had done this before.

This has more information.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/oct/03/the-missed-chances-that-led-to-four-small-boys-dying-in-a-sutton-house-fire

@NewGreenDuck I can see that, also this was during covid. So not easy to take 4 children with you and help she had been getting from the father and his family had stopped due to restrictions.

We don't know all the details re the dad, he could have been trying to help ? He could have paid his way ? We only have journalists to go by and social media keyboard warriors .

Did he know the house is as reported? You only have to read on here how fathers aren't allowed inside the family home.

If the house was as bad as described that's some amount of time needed to build up rubbish, waste etc to calf high. Someone should have noticed . If there was 3 successful visits from SS then they will have seen it. Where is her family? Friends? Her friends were very vocal at the time , surely they were in the house?

Reports contradict each other with some saying they were all clean and healthy and well turned out and then the complete opposite is reported. You can hide a certain amount regarding washing etc for a short amount of time but if someone doesn't have any washing facilities or a clean accessible home for a long time it will become obvious to people.

Everyone wants someone to blame, there are a good few that played a part in letting those boys down. I'm sure families on both sides are wishing they did more. I flabbergasted that SS would report having to climb over rubbish to get into the house, surely you don't close a case like this ? It's convenient that they are blaming COVID and the mother not engaging, I really don't think cases are closed because the mother doesn't want to meet, wasn't there things in place for vulnerable families during covid.

The reports say they had lived from one room, the living room, cooking equipment and fridge, who seen this ? Did this not raise questions that a family of 5 didn't have the use of the kitchen. I'm assuming the other things like bathroom , toilet etc were reported after the fire.

We all know what young children are like for being outspoken and saying how things are, they must have spoken about their living conditions who heard these things, who didn't help them when they heard these things. We know there was reports to SS when the boys said about the mother leaving them alone regularly and nothing being done about this by the authorities. Many played a part in letting them down, it's heartbreaking thinking that they knew they were trapped and there was a fire 😔

They had been to her home several times and had seen her house. They also knew she left them alone.

Of course it is, how on earth can you say its not dickensian?

The loos weren't working, for whatever reason, so why wasn't this addressed? was rubbished thrown into them because they were blocked?
No one is going to chose to use a bucket if there is a working toilet.

Why was the family allowed to live like this? Covid wouldn't have helped but its still going on.

On this morning news is the story of a fire in a block of flats just a few weeks ago, the fire escape was padlocked, everyone blaming someone else, just like Grenfell.

Housing for the poor and its mtce is terrible, i ve been to these places and no one on here would live in them, mould, damp, no insulation, broken heating/unaffordable heating, lifts and yes hoarding too & all allowed to go on until tragedy strikes and then its all hands in the air "must never happen again" until it does again and again and again.

I would imagine that the photo was taken some time before things got really bad in the house. It's extremely unlikely that they were pooing in pots but she was doing their laundry as normal. I find it impossible that an involved and caring parent didn't detect anything awry while his children lived in squalor.

And he knew she left them alone, he's admitted that.

The below made for sad reading.

The blaze occurred at the tail-end of the Covid pandemic when interactions outside contained households were restricted. As a result, the help that Rose relied on from the boy’s father and great-grandmother was greatly reduced. She struggled with her mental health during the period. In May 2020, Rose approached her GP with feelings of low mood. She requested help again with this in April 2021.

Thanks - that's an obvious point if I think about it.

No but those people you list could have stepped up by contacting social services/NSPCC repeatedly until help is given. It is everyone's failure these children died, not just the mothers.

There will be lots of reasons behind this- poor provision for mental health care, overstretched social care etc. you hear too often fathers saying ‘mum stopped contact’ when it’s not really true or if they did it was because they were useless in the first place. It is too easy for fathers to take an easier path of turning away. Did he fight for 50:50, was he paying his way? Anyone with 4 under 5 and on their own is going to be vulnerable- she was clearly ill and struggling.

Obviously she made the decision to leave them for a long time and made the decision to lie to police about jade in the aftermath. Those choices are on her but while legally it’s her responsibility alone, I don’t think the people around her are blame free.

Can we all take a moment to think about the impact on the firefighters and paramedics who attended the scene.

@CrispieCake absolutely agree - too much expectation placed on one person. Take a community to raise a child.

As I said earlier, working as a housing officer I saw people who lived in squalor. If the loo was blocked and the house was hoarded,or squalid they didn't say they needed the loo unblocking. So they used buckets. I've genuinely dealt with several families who did this. It was only when we insisted that trades HAD to be allowed entry that the full horror was revealed. I mean , kids sleeping on mattresses that had human/dog/cat faeces piled on them. Houses that stink of urine/faeces, dead animals. No one knew for ages.

I agree it's how society is structured. When my DH does anything child related I get "it's so great that he 'helps' you" from DM and DMIL.
Things like taking them to school, making dinners any usual parenting stuff that overall I am definitely doing more of. The mental and physical load always falls on mothers. Anyone looking after 4 children under 5 is going to need support.

Family may have tried to intervene, make referrals to SS ect but did they really provocatively support her. The childrens paternal grandmother even admitted to calling the house for the kids to pick up the phone and tell her they were home alone. Why didn't she go there or even call the police at that point!

Everyone knew she needed help, kids were being left home alone and did nothing to help those poor kids.

How horrific for all the professionals involved fire firefighters, paramedics, social worker who raised concerns, and the jury who had to listen to all the details.

I never claimed to be an expert so you can leave out the sarcastic comment.

If a child or children are on their radar, they shouldn’t allow the parent to keep fobbing them off and not allow SS to see them. To just sign them off because they couldn’t get access was, in my personal and non expert opinion, unforgivable. If you think it’s acceptable that’s fine. We’re all allowed our own opinions.

It's easy to say that, but you can't do it.

I once lived next door to a little girl who was poorly looked after. She wasn't badly enough looked after for social services to do anything (or maybe mum had sweet talked them, I don't know). But she quite clearly wasn't well cared for - I'm not going into details but it was clear. If I could have kidnapped that child, I would have. But you can't (and of course this is a good thing - you can't have random adults kidnapping children because they think they'd do a better job!) It broke my heart how very little I could do for her.

I think it's easy to say, "I'd never let any child be left in that situation." But until you've been there, you don't realise it can be close to impossible to get them out.

Not in your situation no, and it must feel awful.

But if my grandchildren were living in those kinds of conditions, I would have taken them with confidence. If the mother wants to report it to the police then she's going to have to show them the living conditions isn't she.