Page 9 | And AGAIN, where the hell was the father?!

PyongyangKipperbang · 2024-10-03T21:12:55+00:00

[[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8elyx27p56o https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8elyx27p56o]] Not suggesting he is responsible for their deaths but..... They lived in squalor, the toilet and bath were both unusable due to being filled with rubbish so they used pots and buckets instead. He knew that the mother left them to go to the local shop and appears to be fine with that, and describes her as a "good mother". WTF?! Two sets of twins in under two years and where the hell was he? Even in a strong team working marriage that would be a struggle, but a single mother doing it..... I am not making excuses for her. What she did both before their deaths and in what caused their deaths was inexcusable. But if you knew that your childs other parent was struggling to that extent then you should step up, and if you dont know then you are not involved enough in their lives to know that they are living in filth. He isnt directly responsible for their deaths but he is surely guilty of neglect?! How the fucking hell has not been charged with that?!

Alectoishome · 04/10/2024 07:54

Those poor children. Breaks my heart to think of how frightened they must have been, and to think of how grim their circumstances were in all the years before that. It does seem they were failed by everybody. Where were the grandparents? If they were my grandkids I'd have long ago barged in and taken them.

GuestFeatu · 04/10/2024 07:54

2Old2Tango · 04/10/2024 07:48

Daddy was busy off making new families with other women, leaving this mother alone to cope with four under-fives.

I'm not excusing the mother's actions in any way, as she made some very bad choices, but I think SS have a lot to answer for (once again) as they were continually refused access to the children so just closed the case. More children let down by the system.

Please tell us from your expert perspective what social services could and should have done differently on the basis of the information they had at the time?

FuckMiniBabybells · 04/10/2024 07:54

@waterrat A shit childhood is mitigation, not a get out of jail free card.

I can have sympathy for those who grew up neglected and/or abused and still think they must be held accountable at the same time. Its not one or the other.

GuestFeatu · 04/10/2024 07:55

Alexandra2001 · 04/10/2024 07:52

..and if the relationship had completely broken down? how would that work? i wouldn't want my ex within a million miles of me, no matter the situation.

The bottom line is they shouldn't have been living like that, no loo's no sanitation, this is supposed to be a 1st world country, not Dickensian England.

But its not uncommon, housing for the poor is a disgrace, can't even make many buildings safe from fire, damp etc.

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They did have loos but the bathrooms were unusable, likely due to hoarding from the sounds of it. I've been in houses where nobody washes because the bath is piled to the top with crap. It's a mental disorder, not a housing issue.

Thebellofstclements · 04/10/2024 07:56

Alexandra2001 · 04/10/2024 07:52

..and if the relationship had completely broken down? how would that work? i wouldn't want my ex within a million miles of me, no matter the situation.

The bottom line is they shouldn't have been living like that, no loo's no sanitation, this is supposed to be a 1st world country, not Dickensian England.

But its not uncommon, housing for the poor is a disgrace, can't even make many buildings safe from fire, damp etc.

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The house was perfectly adequate as supplied. Her maintenance caused the issues - throwing rubbish in the toilets rendering them unusable is not Dickensian England for goodness' sakes.

UnnecessaryOwl · 04/10/2024 07:56

Eightdayz · 03/10/2024 22:53

The fact is you have no idea if he was even aware of that.

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If he wasn’t aware of that it’s still on him 🤦‍♀️

GuestFeatu · 04/10/2024 07:56

biglipslittlehips · 04/10/2024 07:53

@PyongyangKipperbang

The fact is that he didnt take his children out of squalor and look after them properly.
I'm not disgust everyone was shot in this situation but to argue that he should have just taken his kids away from their mother to live with him is not legally sound. You know that's not something men can do. Thank god. Can you imagine if this was allowed?

Actually it is something that anyone with PR can do. If your child is experiencing neglect or abuse you can and indeed should remove them by exercising your PR and the person causing the harm is then obligated to ask the court to determine where they should live. Why do you think fathers don't have that right or power?

GuestFeatu · 04/10/2024 07:58

UnnecessaryOwl · 04/10/2024 07:56

If he wasn’t aware of that it’s still on him 🤦‍♀️

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How is it on him to know what the home conditions were like if he wasn't allowed inside? Are you advocating for separated fathers to be encouraged or allowed to force their way into mother's homes to inspect them?

Alectoishome · 04/10/2024 07:59

Knapplands · 04/10/2024 07:36

NC for this because anyone who knows me will recognise it.
My DC went to their father's home every other weekend. He always picked them up, and I'd always honk the horn outside the house when I picked them up from his home. When I saw him, he was always very tidy and quite dapper.
Then one day he had a health scare which meant phoning for an ambulance. The DC were with him so I was called to pick them up.
The house was truly horrifically disgusting. Unusable toilets; broken shower and bath, and the towels and bedclothes were waxy because they had been unwashed for so long. Teetering piles of crap everywhere. Food festering for years in the kitchen. Rodents everywhere, and rodent poison just scattered on the floor of the kitchen.
The paramedic said that it was the worst they'd ever seen.
I had no idea. None. No-one did. The DC said they knew it was bad, but it was also just their normal for dad's house, so they never said anything. I think there was an element of protecting him too.

So whilst the father of these children was naïve to think it was appropriate for their mother to pop out to the shops, it is entirely possible for people close to families not to know about neglect.

I will always feel guilty for not knowing. Just typing this makes me sick, thinking about my lovely kind kids sleeping in filthy sheets with dead rats on their bedroom floor.

Gosh, I'm so sorry. That is horrendous.

HollyKnight · 04/10/2024 08:00

She had family helping her. The children's father, paternal stepgrandmother, and paternal great-grandmother all helped out with the children regularly until Covid. The great-grandmother in particular phoned often and would offer to take the children. I don't know about her own family. They've not really been mentioned. But anyway, she wasn't on her own with zero help with the children.

She had zero help with the home though and she refused to let anyone see how bad it was. She didn't even believe it was bad. She had excuses for everything. The toilet wasn't broken, the children just went to the toilet in buckets because there were 4 of them and only one toilet, the stuff in the bath wasn't mess it was just stuff waiting to be washed etc.

Oilyoilyoilgob · 04/10/2024 08:03

My cleaner also helps people in hoarding situations-she said it’s unbelievable how the people living in absolute horror (dead rats on counters, in beds etc) can look ‘normal’. She helps one lady who has a few outfits that she keeps clean and from the outside, no one would have any idea that she lives in a house with a rat infestation, dead rats everywhere, rotten food and urine in bottles.

I have no idea what happened in this case, but it can be easy for people to look somewhat presentable but have absolute chaos going on at home. Heartbreaking for those children, such a tragedy.

angeldelite · 04/10/2024 08:03

GuestFeatu · 04/10/2024 07:54

Please tell us from your expert perspective what social services could and should have done differently on the basis of the information they had at the time?

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It doesn’t need an expert. One social worker said she thought another social worker had handled it. So it suggests chaos and disorganisation and arse covering. It could be down to stretched resources and underfunding.

GuestFeatu · 04/10/2024 08:04

HollyKnight · 04/10/2024 08:00

She had family helping her. The children's father, paternal stepgrandmother, and paternal great-grandmother all helped out with the children regularly until Covid. The great-grandmother in particular phoned often and would offer to take the children. I don't know about her own family. They've not really been mentioned. But anyway, she wasn't on her own with zero help with the children.

She had zero help with the home though and she refused to let anyone see how bad it was. She didn't even believe it was bad. She had excuses for everything. The toilet wasn't broken, the children just went to the toilet in buckets because there were 4 of them and only one toilet, the stuff in the bath wasn't mess it was just stuff waiting to be washed etc.

Hang on, these children were 3 and 4, presumably born 2020 and 2021. What does Covid have to do with it? They were all born during Covid. Restrictions haven't been in place for nearly 3 years now, the younger children's whole lives.

Diomi · 04/10/2024 08:04

He was aware there were problems because he contacted social services. He was right to report it to social services but that isn’t where his responsibility ended. Maybe he was fighting for full custody. I don’t know enough about the case or how involved in their lives he was.

Seasmoke · 04/10/2024 08:06

GuestFeatu · 04/10/2024 08:04

Hang on, these children were 3 and 4, presumably born 2020 and 2021. What does Covid have to do with it? They were all born during Covid. Restrictions haven't been in place for nearly 3 years now, the younger children's whole lives.

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This didn't happen this year. It happened in 2021. She's just been convicted.

HollyKnight · 04/10/2024 08:06

GuestFeatu · 04/10/2024 08:04

Hang on, these children were 3 and 4, presumably born 2020 and 2021. What does Covid have to do with it? They were all born during Covid. Restrictions haven't been in place for nearly 3 years now, the younger children's whole lives.

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I don't know. That's just what the reports were saying. Covid was blamed for her declining mental health and for why social services only visited 3 times out of 5 (the others were phone calls). The children died in 2021 so they were born before that.

angeldelite · 04/10/2024 08:07

GuestFeatu · 04/10/2024 08:04

Hang on, these children were 3 and 4, presumably born 2020 and 2021. What does Covid have to do with it? They were all born during Covid. Restrictions haven't been in place for nearly 3 years now, the younger children's whole lives.

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There have been hundreds of posts from MNers saying they suffered with having babies/young kids during Covid. Many said there was no support, no play groups, etc. Isolation was rife.

HollyKnight · 04/10/2024 08:09

Restrictions were still in place in December 2021. So yeah everything leading up to their deaths happened during Covid.

Alectoishome · 04/10/2024 08:17

Another giveaway that the mother is a vile creature - lying that a friend was in the house looking after the boys so the firemen were forced to go back inside a dangerous building, on fire, potentially structurally unsound, hard to navigate with all the crap and with hazard-levels of filth. She sent them in there for no reason. She deserves everything she gets the wicked thing, and I don't believe for a second she only left for 10 minutes. She's clearly been telling concerned relatives and professionals a pack of lies for ages. Disgusting.

Seasmoke · 04/10/2024 08:24

Alectoishome · 04/10/2024 08:17

Another giveaway that the mother is a vile creature - lying that a friend was in the house looking after the boys so the firemen were forced to go back inside a dangerous building, on fire, potentially structurally unsound, hard to navigate with all the crap and with hazard-levels of filth. She sent them in there for no reason. She deserves everything she gets the wicked thing, and I don't believe for a second she only left for 10 minutes. She's clearly been telling concerned relatives and professionals a pack of lies for ages. Disgusting.

Edited

She apparently left them for 90 minutes. Yes, the lying about a friend looking after them sounds like her first thought was saving her own skin when she realised she would be in trouble for leaving them on their own.
I don't know what the father did. Clearly not enough, but also I doubt he had enough money or time to support 5 children adequately, yet continued to impregnate women seemingly every year.

angeldelite · 04/10/2024 08:25

HollyKnight · 04/10/2024 07:44

Yes. Exactly. People think he would have known what the house was like. People think the children would have said something. But why would he (or you) know what the house looked like when you didn't go in it and why would children say something when as far as they know that is just normal for mum's house (or dad's in your case). What goes on behind closed doors isn't what people present to the outside world.

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If he is saying she was a good mum then he must have been in the house sometimes.

Busybeemumm · 04/10/2024 08:25

SilverDoe · 04/10/2024 02:56

Imagine your children's mother cutting you off, clearly seeing a downward spiral in her mental health, reporting this all to social services, then finding out your kids have all died in her care, then having a random bunch of people who know absolutely nothing about you or your children, after the court case and investigation has taken place and found you guilty of nothing, blaming you for the death of all of your children.

Where is the empathy, where is the sense. It's shameful.

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Where exactly is the empathy for the mother who had mental health needs and failed by everyone including the father of their children. Yet again its the mother who gets blamed and 'found guilty' when the responsibility of this should be shared. It takes a village after all!

angeldelite · 04/10/2024 08:29

Hoarding is a compulsion and often a sign of wider issues.

Telling a hoarder to stop hoarding is like telling them to stop eating.

HollyKnight · 04/10/2024 08:32

angeldelite · 04/10/2024 08:25

If he is saying she was a good mum then he must have been in the house sometimes.

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Why?

angeldelite · 04/10/2024 08:33

HollyKnight · 04/10/2024 08:32

Why?

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How could he know she was a good mum unless he spent time with her?