Help me make sense of how I feel? Transgender person in the loo.

[ScottishLottie]

I think of myself as very liberal - very 'live and let live', love is love and people should be absolutely free to be whomever they want to be.

Went into our local city on Fri last week and noticed a higher amount of transgender folk (specifically man to woman), socialising in the area. "Good on them!" I thought. Love living and working in a society where they're able to do this. I was actually interested and looked up why there might have been so many more trans people around and apparently there's some sort of 'First Friday' trans event whereby trans people congregate in trans-friendly bars and restaurants in the area on the first Friday of the month.

Fast forward to the next night and I was in the city again, having taken by 15 yr old DD and her friend to the theatre.

On coming out of the theatre, she needed the loo before we left, so her and the friend went in and I waited outside. As I was waiting, a transgender woman (quite a big, strong, butch-looking person underneath the dress and the makeup) entered the female bathroom and I had a completely visceral reaction. I was horrified that DD and friend were in a space where they might be a bit more vulnerable and they should be absolutely safe in a female-only environment.

Nothing happened of course, but I was surprised and ashamed that I felt the way I did.

What is the reason behind this? Why do I have opinions and feelings that I wasn't aware of? I feel awful but want to understand why I felt this way?

If someone is born male then part of living as their “authentic self” is recognising that immutable and authentic fact. And part of living as a responsible adult human being is recognising that other human beings have the right to live their lives as their “authentic selves” as women and not be expected to shift over and share their legally identified single sex spaces ( insert as required : sports/ language/ changing rooms/ hospital wards/ prisons/ refuges ).

The clue is in the phrase single sex.

Well, they could campaign for 3rd spaces. Individual cubicle toilets complete with sink and floor to ceiling walls with the entrance in a non-secluded place.

They could also campaign for change in the risk that men pose. a trans identifying male has just as much right to use the men's loo in peace as any other male. The fact that other men pose a risk to him shouldn't be women's problem to budge up for.

There's no need for a "cock check", is there? Men should keep out however they choose to dress and present themselves.

I think most mother's would - under guise of chivvy them along - suddenly deciding on toilet yourself or checking makeup/washing hands.

Men should not be in female spaces. Did you see the recent research on how much more likely transgender were to be convicted sex offenders. An order of magnitude above men!

I think people need to stop being scared to say the obvious! It's quite frankly ridiculous especially when you look at the stats.

Male fear of other males does not take priority over female fears of males.

Females are not a safety screen for gender confused males.

Because you have experienced the clash of gender affirmation vs women’s rights and it’s suddenly dawned on you that trans women are in fact male and no less of a risk than other males.

Indeed I believe statistics demonstrate this.

A man who looks male is a man.
A man who looks feminine in a a man
A man in a dress & makeup is a man.

I don’t care how they present

Women are not a human shield for trans women.

My rights are not anyone’s to give away.

No men in women’s spaces.

This is why 3rd spaces are the only sensible solution.

Whether this is combined with a disabled facility, thereby helping a larger community get access to appropriate toilets, or simply a neutral loo among men’s and women’s, depends on the space available. I’d support an accessible toilet in every building which could also be useful for many trans people who are recovering from surgery and need dressings changed etc or who have lifelong complications from their surgery which mean urgent access to an accessible toilet would be beneficial.

Nothing at all because women don't have penises.

A penis is a weapon that can be used to rape.

A vagina has no weaponisation at all.

All men, in all bathrooms, have the possibility of raping women, whether they are dressed as men or women.

I haven't yet experienced a male in the female toilets anywhere but I'm just so disappointed that it's happening and we seem to be helpless to do anything about it. Would I confront if I encounter a male in a female space? Unsure. I'd like to think I would but in reality would fear of putting myself at risk or being made out to be the one in the wrong cause me to keep quiet? Quite probably 😞

Your reaction is completely normal and justified. We have single sex spaces for very good reason.

It has nothing to do with trans women keeping themselves safe. It has everything to do with their perceived right to live "as a woman". Why is the onus on women to accept male bodies into their spaces rather than on men to accept other men who dress differently into theirs?

Because that's our space

Not theirs

Simple

I would…”Hey girls, I’m just out here putting on my lipstick. Are you nearly finished?” A bit of an I’m here, and I’m keeping an eye on things message. But. We are not with our teen daughters 24/7 and women/girls have been conditioned to push down their instincts in favour of “not rocking the boat”, “not making a fuss”, and “not making someone else feel uncomfortable”.

You notice gender non-conforming people. You don't notice people who pass.
Transvestigators are suggesting J K Rowling and Sharron Davies are trans.

Many GNC people have been harassed because they don't meet traditional standards of womenhood and it's getting worse in this transphobic climate.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10790306/

Transvestigators are suggesting J K Rowling and Sharron Davies are trans

WTF are you on about?!

Your reaction was a natural one in response to seeing a male go into a space that should only be for females.
The problem with live and let live in this scenario is that the will of one male is negatively impacting a larger group of more vulnerable people, females.

The theory is nice and fluffy, the reality is very different especially when you realise that it's your own daughters rights and safety thats being comprised.

Yes males invading female spaces had made women more suspicious and risk averse. Hardly surprising.

Males should be staying out of female spaces and not trying to gain access to them to help tackle this.

OP if you don't have an attitude of caution towards men you don't know, you haven't been paying attention
but apparently your early warning system (bypassing your conscious brain full of ideas about what you 'ought' to think and do) is working fine so all good
many of us were like you, wanting everyone to be treated well and live their best life
but once you realise its not just a matter of men dressing/presenting 'feminine' but of men actually insisting they are women your conscious brain with its critical thinking will eventually lead you to the dark side

Unlike you, I think there is a straightforward answer. you can’t change sex. Doesn’t matter what you do to your body, what you wear, how you present yourself, what you call yourself, what pronouns you use, even if you have a piece of paper claiming you have changed sex, you have exactly the same chromosomes you had when your cells started dividing after conception.

So if you need a wee or a poo you use the toilet that caters for your sex not your gender.

Because despite your wanting to 'live and let live' you know instinctively that men don't belong in women's bathrooms regardless of how they identify.

In some areas there isn't even the option of single sex rape crisis counselling. A woman who was raped was forced to share group counselling with a male.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61958346.amp

Wanting your DD to have a space away from males is totally reasonable and your reaction is legitimate.

Society needs to catch up and resist after lobby groups have forced mixed sex spaces that hardly anybody wants.

Any man who says he feels like a woman and then demands access to women's loos, changing rooms etc is proving beyond doubt that he does not feel like a woman.

His feelings are still utterly rooted and entirely belong in the sphere of patriarchy and the subjugation of women to men's desires.

Don’t know @Demonhunter ..that was the phrase OP used. I know what my definition is but it’s probably different to others. Anyway. No men in women’s spaces.

There is a massive here which needs unpacking.

Most people support trans right and trans people because they are decent people and want to be nice. We should treat all people with respect and dignity.

The problem comes with practical application, and people start to realise the reality of letting males into single sex spaces. This isn't about being nice - it's the fact that safety and the dignity and wellbeing of women in this equation have been forgotten.

Women are supposed to be nice and accepting and respect others, yet this isn't a two way streak in practice. There is no consideration for the impact of transwomen entering women's space and why those spaces were created in the first place. There's no consideration for how this forces various women's groups to self exclude from public life where this happens. And this ISN'T ok.

No good male would enter a women's changing room and change in the presence of women and children if they still have a penis. Their identity shouldn't override the impact this has on women. That's my real issue and that when you start to see the sexism that is entrenched into trans ideology.

You are having a reaction out of guilt because you've been conditioned to think you should feel a certain way and behave in a certain way, but you are starting to realise how this clashes with your own safety, well being, dignity and rights and those of your daughters. I think this is how a lot of women start to realise that it's not ok. But are caught between this conflict between trying to do the right thing and social pressure and conditions and the inherent problems and abuse of the good will and intentions of people.

You are NOT a bad person. You are not bigoted. You should not feel guilty for feeling like this.

You are realising what you were told does actually really work and harms women and girls and that makes it not ok. It's not about 'just wanting to pee' as you were told. It's about the use of women for validation not the use of the toilets.

When it comes to changing rooms in particular, it gets complex. Our voyeurism laws have been set up to protect women from the male gaze, but this opens women up to males exploiting identity politics to enable voyeurism and women feeling like they can challenge. This doesn't mean that transwomen are pervs. It means that transwomen have no respect for how their use of facilities weakens protection for women and the preventative effect of voyeurism laws. Calling women transphobic for speaking up or challenging if they feel uncomfortable affects power dynamics and enables the unlawful behaviour of those who do have nefarious objectives. Even innocent usage is disrespectful and offensive to the dignity, privacy and religious considerations of women.

Once you realise that you are effectively being emotionally blackmailed and manipulated into a situation which actively harms women that feeling of guilt fades.

To be replaced with one of anger about how women have been silence, intimidated and otherwise bullying into this situation without proper consideration and consultation.

Welcome to the 'dark side' where sanity rains and you are no longer under the spell of authoritarian dictates straight out of Orwell's 1984 where we are expected to say that black is white and that someone is holding up 4 fingers when you can only see 3. And now you know how illiberal leaders maintain control and order in societies despite it seeming crazy for people to except that to outsiders.

The spell has been broken. Welcome to the freedom to think critically.