Help me make sense of how I feel? Transgender person in the loo.

[ScottishLottie]

I think of myself as very liberal - very 'live and let live', love is love and people should be absolutely free to be whomever they want to be.

Went into our local city on Fri last week and noticed a higher amount of transgender folk (specifically man to woman), socialising in the area. "Good on them!" I thought. Love living and working in a society where they're able to do this. I was actually interested and looked up why there might have been so many more trans people around and apparently there's some sort of 'First Friday' trans event whereby trans people congregate in trans-friendly bars and restaurants in the area on the first Friday of the month.

Fast forward to the next night and I was in the city again, having taken by 15 yr old DD and her friend to the theatre.

On coming out of the theatre, she needed the loo before we left, so her and the friend went in and I waited outside. As I was waiting, a transgender woman (quite a big, strong, butch-looking person underneath the dress and the makeup) entered the female bathroom and I had a completely visceral reaction. I was horrified that DD and friend were in a space where they might be a bit more vulnerable and they should be absolutely safe in a female-only environment.

Nothing happened of course, but I was surprised and ashamed that I felt the way I did.

What is the reason behind this? Why do I have opinions and feelings that I wasn't aware of? I feel awful but want to understand why I felt this way?

Clearly you DO have issues. The same “issues” most of us have when trying to square the “be kind” liberal attitude and lifelong socialisation of women and girls to put up and shut up, with what we KNOW to be true about men/male people of all genders - they are more likely to do us harm than other women (no matter how “butch”) because men commit the vast majority of physical and sexual violence.

Added to that the vast majority of trans women also still have a penis, the instrument that violent males use to commit this sexual violence, and that this particular person is also the kind of male person who feels no shame inserting themselves into women’s spaces, your body knew very well that this was a situation that required vigilance.

You KNOW in your head that the likelihood of this particular individual being a violent criminal was low, but you also clocked in your gut that the threat was higher than from any other ‘woman’ entering that space.

I was brought up in the 80s / 90s and I was always taught in some way that men can be a danger. I mean it was only that my mum let me watch crime watch from a very young age and always told me to have my keys on me and if I ever needed to defend myself to do so. My point is you can’t just walkway or forget what we have been told for years because something becomes more socially acceptable. Add to this that the ladies loos are always a million miles away and I the loneliest areas of the building.

It's highly, highly unlikely men would feel threatened. Because it's highly, highly unlikely they could either be sexually or violently assaulted by a transman. You know, due to biology and all.

Not comparable. At all

There isn't anything wrong with you. You were worried about your teenage daughter sharing a close personal space with a man, just because it was a man wearing a dress doesn't make it any "better" or safer.

This is what I struggle with. Personally, I would have no issue in sharing a bathroom with Ella.

How do we protect people like Ella, who would likely face the same dangers in a mens’ toilet as we do, whilst still protecting ourselves and our daughters? A cock check at the door? Seriously, I don’t know how we navigate this.

You can't think your way out of a biological, visceral reaction.

What you really should be asking yourself is why you have been hoodwinked into believing men can 'live as women'. Just have a think for a few minutes about what that suggests about women as a political class.

Your visceral reaction wasn't to a transgender person being in the female loos - it was to a man (or male person if you'd rather) being in a place where women and girls are vulnerable, and which has therefore been designated as a single-sex space. Of course you want to be liberal and live-and-let-live, and I'm sure you are. But as a woman you also have boundaries, and this man breached them.

There's a conflict between some of the demands made by some people in the trans rights movement, and the needs of women and girls to safety, privacy and fair competition. We need a sensible conversation on how to manage that. As others have said, we have single-sex spaces for good reasons, and we shouldn't be made to feel guilty for wanting to preserve them.

Except that you know, deep down, that men are more of a risk to be around than women are. That's backed up by a lot of data and true across cultures worldwide and historically.

A ladies loo is a secluded place where women get (partially, and sometimes fully) undressed, where they deal with intimate body functions behind a screen that can be easily seen over or under by somebody with nefarious intentions. We deal with periods in there, accidents and incontinence and women who have miscarriages deal with them in there. Loos are where we retreat to if a date is going badly, or if we are worried by a man's behaviour in the bar. A ladies loo is a safe refuge from men and a man in a ladies loo is a person out of place. They are in the one place that should be safe away from men.

However liberal and progressive and kind you know yourself to be; your nervous system knows that that is a man. You know that too. It's not TERFY to admit to yourself that this person has the physiology and biology of a male sexed person.

You can wish trans identifying folk well and want them to be able to live in peace as they please, and also recognise that their biological sex doesn't change. Women's spaces have been for female sex people, by law, for years, because biological men in women's toilets makes them an unsafe place for women to use. As your instinct has recognised. The fact that the biological man identifies as a woman doesn't reduce the risk that they pose to biological women. You may wish to believe otherwise because you are a kind person, and I suspect that this is the core of the conflict in you.

Whatever you decide going forwards, please don't squash your instinct. It is a valid sense that women are all too often gaslight into squashing down and repressing.

lol. he's a man. in a woman's space. no need for all this self-flagellation.

I think it’s understandable when your DD and her friend were in the toilet. You felt that protectiveness towards them and I’d have been exactly the same.
A line needs to be drawn and I’m afraid if you aren’t biologically female, you don’t belong in a female toilet. If a premises is so open to trans people, they need to provide a separate unisex toilet for them and leave the female toilets for biological females.

You really don’t notice that someone is transgender. It’s so bloody obviously despite how much makeup they apply because obviously that’s what’s makes someone a woman.

//

Abso fucking loutely this

As a man a poster like Dad has NEVER had to subconsciously risk assess like we have. And trust me we definitely know.

Oh and you know men are more likely to commit violent crime and sexual assaults, even if they think they are women. It's like saying "A bear walked into the ladies loo. Why am I alarmed?" Except many women might prefer a bear.

Lots of us feel the same, op. Not sure why it's so shocking. I'd go a step further and enter the bathroom if I saw a man walk in, dressed as a woman or not, to make sure my child was safe.

I think you’re just like most women - you tolerate that people can dress and identify however they like but the line is drawn when men want to invade female safe spaces because that then is an infringement on yours and your daughters rights. You recognise the potential vulnerability of women and feel an instinctive need to protect your daughter

Men are more likely to commit crimes, that’s why you reacted.

Men with paraphilias are even higher risk.

We react on a visceral level because it’s ingrained fir our survival.

This is a really complicated one and I don’t have any answers but
if your son or brother was born biological a man but always identifies as a women went through all the oops and lived as a woman should that women then use the male toilets. How would a man then feel if a women was in the men’s. Does it mean only the butch trans women have to use the men’s and anyone that looks female can use the women’s . Sorry if I’ve used any incorrect language I’m from a different generation that also struggling on saying and doing the right thing. I’m think if you posted the same comment on a platform with younger people you’d get some interesting views. I think your totally right to question your thoughts but don’t think there’s a straight forward answer

Trust your gut instinct.

I think it's appalling that trans ideology tries to undermine our basic survival instincts.

There used to be no need to prioritise male feelings over safeguarding.

No matter how we all like to believe we are all " live and let live" we are only kidding ourselves. The truth always shows it's self when we perceive a threat.
We can all live as we like, a man can tell us he us he is now Danielle and not Daniel, he can wear a dress, totter on heels, slap on the lippy and live with his "Husband" and that is just fine, crack on, love who you love, nobody should stop that BUT even if he wants to be Danielle it does not give him the right to be in the women's toilets or changing rooms.

Anyone born male is male regardless of what they do to change themselves and how they look or call themselves and they should not be in women's spaces

If it truly is about keeping the transwomen safe then it has to be third spaces. Not an easy solution but women are not human shields

THIS. Stereotypical female clothing, make-up and long hair (NONE of which I wear or have) do not magically transform a potentially predatory man into a safe one.

I absolutely would. There is such a thing as being so broadminded and accepting that your brains fall out.

I'm very liberal. Live and let live. It takes a lot of people to make a world.

But. If you've got a penis I don't want to shit, piss or change in front of you.

Of course you secretly fear men. The vast majority of them are capable of killing you. We are all mammals; we have self preservation instincts.

I'm not going to make any comment on trans rights as actually that's a slightly separate issue - but fgs stop beating yourself up about your natural instinct to stay safe. It doesn't mean you're a misandrist.